#125 Toxic Feedback vs. Transforming Dialogue with Jessica Van Roekel

//  Jessica Van Roekel is a writer and speaker who works directly with our clients and client teams to help them find their own voice of influence and develop that.

In this episode, we talk about why it’s important that feedback we get and give is shared in a respectful dialogue instead of a blanket statement of judgment, what she believes is a voice of influence, the importance of choosing a coach or adviser who honors your perspective and inner voice, her experience being a participant in one of the very first Voice of Influence six-month group coaching programs, why that particular program made such a difference for her, and what she loves about helping and working with clients now.

Take a listen to the episode below!

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Transcript

Hey, hey!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Today, I am interviewing somebody who is actually on the Voice of Influence team.  Jessica Van Roekel is a writer, a speaker, and she works directly with our clients and client teams to help them find their own voice of influence and develop that.

I’m really excited to introduce you to her today.  You’re going to hear the passion, love, and care that she has in her voice.  And I’m excited for you to hear what she has to say about her own journey because she shares with us her journey, and in the midst of sharing with us about her journey, we talk about why it’s important that feedback that we get and that we give is really of respectful dialogue instead of a blanket statement of judgment.

We also talk about what she believes is a voice of influence and how helping people come to their own conclusions is a big piece of it.  We talk about the importance of choosing a coach or adviser who really honors your perspective and your inner voice. She shares with us her experience from being a participant in one of the very first Voice of Influence six-month group coaching programs and why that particular program and something in that program really made a difference for her.  And then finally, we really talk about what she loves about helping and working with clients now.

Now, if you are interested in any of the things that we talk about today, and you want to dive in more – you want to learn more about Jessica, you want to learn more about how you could work with her, with Voice of Influence to help your people gain what she has gained to grow in their management skills, to grow as a leader and a person who really does have a voice of influence on your team – then we would love to talk to you more about that.  Just go to voiceofinfluence.net, go to the contact form, and you will be emailing me to let me know that you’re interested. I’d be happy to jump on a call with you and find out more about what you need and what your people are looking for, what you’re looking to develop in your team. And we’ll just sort of discuss about how we could potentially help you with that. It’s a very low-pressure conversation, and I really love hearing from listeners.

So, go over to voiceofinfluence.net, hit that contact button, and shoot me an email.  I’d love to hear from you.

All right, this is my interview with Jessica:

Andrea:  All right, Jessica, it is great to have you with me here today on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Thank you so much.  I am thrilled to be here with you.

Andrea:  Okay!  I really have been looking forward to this conversation with you because you are such a light, and you are a joyful person.  You know, I feel like we just really kind of connect, and we have this mutual passion for helping people find their voice and making a difference in the world.  You’re just such a joy to have around, so I really have been looking forward to this.

Jessica Van Roekel:   Thank you, I appreciate those sentiments.  That’s my goal in life is to connect with people and to help them find joy and to see light.  So thank you.

Andrea:  So, Jessica, let’s start with why does helping people find their voice, why does this matter to you personally.  What’s your experience with that?

Jessica Van Roekel:  My experience with helping people find their voice and why that’s important to me stems from the fact that I have always wanted to influence people.  I’ve always wanted to encourage them and to let them know that they’re heard and that they’re accepted. I’ve always tried to be open-minded and receptive of other people.  And I had an incident where a friend of mine – we’d been friends for several years – and she sent me an email stating how I wasn’t those things, and that froze me for a couple of years.

Andrea:  So the feedback that you were not who you thought you were just kind of…

Jessica Van Roekel:  The feedback that I was not who I thought I was just literally locked me.  I would go places and I would be afraid to speak up, or if I did speak up, I would run that conversation over and over in my mind for days after and think that if someone looked away while I was talking meant that what I said was wrong.  And it just sent me into this mental tailspin of really wondering, “Can I influence people? Am I influencing people? Do I even have a right to influence people?” And then at the same time feeling indignant like, “I have a right to my voice; why can’t I use my voice?  How can I use my voice in a way that is influential and why wasn’t it influential with this person?” I dealt with two simultaneous responses; afraid and indignation.

Andrea:  Let me just ask the question first and then you can answer it.  Why do you think that that bothered you so much? Why do you think her feedback specifically bothered you so much?

Jessica Van Roekel:  Because I felt like that’s who I was.  I felt like I was open-minded and grace-filled and light-filled and a good listener and an acceptor of all people, and she was telling me that I wasn’t.

Andrea:  So it was like you couldn’t trust yourself anymore?

Jessica Van Roekel:  It felt like I couldn’t trust myself anymore.  It felt like I couldn’t trust my motives. It felt like I had been misrepresenting myself my entire life.

Andrea:  Wow, so everything’s kind of just like the rug has been pulled out from under you.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes, yes, it felt like the rug was pulled out from under me, and I was left just disoriented.  And yet at the same time I knew that I was a good encourager, and I knew that I could influence people.  I didn’t know quite what to do with her response, so I shut down.

Andrea:  So, as you are struggling with this, what were some of the feelings that came up for you?

Jessica Van Roekel:  Doubt, doubt in my own voice, my own ability to affect positive change in people’s lives.  Distrust of other people and myself. An almost Gumby-like personality where I will form myself into the shape for this person, and I will twist myself into the shape for this other person.

  I felt indignation too because I felt like this one incident gave that person so much power over my life; whether I did or did not do, or whether I spoke up for the good of another person to encourage them.  I was afraid to encourage people. I was afraid to speak life into them. I was afraid to bring joy to them. I was afraid to connect with people because if I connected with somebody and I didn’t influence them just right, they would reject me, and I would have that rug pulled out from under my feet and land with a thud and feel broken.

Andrea:  You know, I really want to get to the fact that you did kind of get out of that.  But before we go there, what could have made the feedback something that instead of taking away that voice or making you feel like you shouldn’t speak anymore – making you feel frozen – how could that person have offered feedback in a way that would be more constructive or… yeah, what do you think about that?

Jessica Van Roekel:  I think questions rather than accusations or just blanket statements.  The problem I really believe why that bothered me so very much is the fact that I didn’t even have a chance to explain myself or to have a part of the discussion.  It was as if she had come to this decision, it was made, and I had no say in that decision. We couldn’t even have a conversation, so I couldn’t even ask questions, “Well, what did I do that caused you to come to this?”

So for me to have received a harsh message like that, [it] would have been better if we could have had a dialogue about it where instead of a blanket statement being made, “You are graceless and judgmental, ” this person could have said, “Why did you react this way?  This way made me feel this way.” And then I could have maybe had an opportunity to step back and think, “Oh, I guess I can see where that would have come across that way. Let’s talk about this.” But that didn’t happen. The decision was made. She had come to this decision, and I was not allowed into that conversation.

Andrea:  I find that really, really interesting, Jessica, because really it sounds like a judgment was passed on you.  And rather than there being this dialogue back and forth of, “Help me to grow in this,” and take your perspective and understand where you’re coming from – from both sides – just a blanket judgment was passed which then you felt…  I can see how you would feel like your voice was taken from you in that moment.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes, I felt, “Oh, my voice wasn’t allowed into this conversation.  There must be something that I’m doing that caused her to come to this judgment.  I don’t know what it is because we are not able to have a respectful dialogue. So maybe I just should not say anything at all.  Maybe I just need to shut my mouth and become this little church mouse in the corner.” And if you know me, you know that that’s not the type of person I am.  So, it’s really two years of an enforced cage that I put myself in, and I didn’t enjoy it.

Andrea:  Okay, so how did you get out of it?  How did you get out of this cage?  

Jessica Van Roekel:  How did I get out of the cage?  The first step was the indignation overcame the reticence that I had wrapped around myself, and I decided – or I came to the awareness – that I was allowing this one situation, this one person so much power in my life, and they weren’t even in my life anymore.  And I thought, “What am I doing?” So, I just decided, “I’m going to take baby steps.” So, I started writing. I started writing publicly. I started encouraging people again. I started trusting myself again, trusting that if I am on the wrong path I’ll just be shown, and I’ll do a redirection.  And along in that journey then it led me to meeting people like you who specialized in helping people find their voice. So then I signed up for your Voice of Influence Academy.

Andrea:  I love this story so much, and I want to talk about the Voice of Influence Academy eventually, but do you feel like you got there?  Do you feel like you got to where you want to go, or where are you at in this journey now of finding your voice and using it?

Jessica Van Roekel:  I feel like I am so far down the road.  I can talk about that incident now without feeling anger or fear.  I believe that I am making a difference in people’s lives. I hear that I am.  And the ones that don’t want to receive my influence, I don’t let that put me into that box again.  I am aware that when I let fear motivate me, I react, and I don’t have influence. But when I let love motivate me and the care and concern for others motivate me and their hearts and minds and lives, that’s what I’m most influential.

So, for me, I feel like I am much further down this and that I use my voice to influence people in a way that serves them and isn’t self-serving to myself.  I think that that can be a little bit of a rub in the fact that there have been times where I’ve influenced people, thinking, “I know, I’ve got the answer for them.”  That’s rather self-serving, and it’s rather prideful as well. I think it’s a little bit of self-serving because notice that I have the answer for them. I know what they should be doing.  I know the exact thing that’s going to make them feel better or have a different perspective or make better choices. I’m not the one that does that. I’m just a tool used so that they can come to those conclusions on their own.

Andrea:  And that is so important.  All right, so, Jessica, what do you see as a voice of influence now?  At this point in your journey and having gotten to the point where you are actually helping other people develop their own voice of influence, what do you see as a voice of influence now?

Jessica Van Roekel:  A voice of influence now, I see it as letting go of the outcome, not being responsible for the outcome.  I see it as pointing people in a direction that maybe they hadn’t really thought about before and letting them come to the conclusion on their own.  A voice of influence is not about control, a voice of influence is about affecting positive change in someone else’s life. For me, personally, it’s not about, you know, having them circle back around and tell me, “Uh, that statement, that advice you gave me, that’s exactly what I needed to hear.”  I love to hear that – and I mean, I really love to hear that – and I would love it if everybody would just come circle back around to me and say, “Jessica, I love what you had to say, it made this massive difference in my life.” Yeah, who wouldn’t want to hear that, right?

But I’m learning that I don’t need to have that to still have a voice of influence.  That I can be outward focused enough while being sure of my own inner voice that I can just influence people, and then let them take it.  It’s their life. It’s not my life to control. And if they want to come back around and tell me how that piece of advice made all the world of difference in their life, or if me taking some time out of the day to just listen to them helped them regain focus, I would love to hear that.  But I don’t have to hear that to offer my voice of influence to the world.

Andrea:  That’s so important.  That validation is certainly helpful, and I think we need a lot of it when we’re first starting.  But it seems that as we become more clear and more confident of how we interact, and how we use our voice, and our own inner voice, and using that in the world that we need that validation less and less because we’re ready, we’re confident of what we’re offering.  And it doesn’t mean that we’re right all the time, but at least we can recognize that, “Sure, there are gonna be times when I’m wrong, and as long as I’m open to this person, you know, sort of coming to their own conclusion,” as you put it, “then there’s less to own.”

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes, yes.  And the less that we have to own, the less crushing underneath burdens that are not ours to bear.

Andrea:  And we’re not as tied to that outcome because it doesn’t have a direct effect on how we see ourselves and our value.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes, yes.  Now, on the flip side we could be totally callous and be like, “This is my voice, and this is how I’m gonna use it, and you can take it or leave it.”  I don’t think that’s how we need to be either. That’s just as self-serving as the other way of trying to have our fingers in every single outcome. And so there needs to be this merging of being solid and secure, and know our inner voice, and how we’ve chosen to use that interact with other people.  And not in a way that says, “This is who I am, you know, if you don’t like me you just go into that corner and just be over there.” That doesn’t serve anybody either. Just like hovering, “Okay, I gave you this piece of advice and you didn’t take it. Well, why not? You need to do what I said. What I said was the best advice you’re ever gonna receive.”  Both of those don’t serve the greater goal that I think we all have and that is to have genuine authentic influence in someone’s life.

Andrea:  I love that.  You know, something that I’ve been thinking about for a while is the way that coaches in particular – coaches or people who give advice or, you know, want to have some sort of specific influence on somebody else’s life, but I’ve seen this in coaches a lot – where they sort of end up taking away the voice of the other person instead of helping them find their own voice because they know that their way is the way that this person should go.  Whether that be, “This specific model that I use. It’s all about your mind and your mindset. It’s all about your body and the way that you feel things.” You know, each person kind of comes to the coaching or the advice-giving process with a perspective or a world view and their own personal experience.

And a lot of times what we do is we end up projecting our own experience on everybody else, and then assuming that we have the right way of doing things.  I know it always comes down to this. I’ve heard that before, “Well, it always ends up being about mindset.” I’ve heard this from people and I’m like, “But it’s not always just about mindset.”  We’re very integrated, complicated human beings, and we all need to have kind of a holistic approach to the way that we’re looking at things, but especially when we’re talking about how to guide somebody else or help them find their path when they’re looking for a way to do things.  In the end, they have to feel like they’re doing what they feel is what they should do, not just what somebody else has told them to do.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Absolutely, absolutely.  We are such unique individuals, and we can have the same goals, same priorities, or same standards; but how each of us reaches those is going to be unique to who we are, to our voice, to our past experiences, to our current life circumstances, and to our future hopes and dreams.  That all has to be taken into play when someone enters into a coaching experience.

Andrea:  Absolutely.  All right, so let’s dive into a little bit.  You actually do work with clients for Voice of Influence, and you help them to find their voice.  You help them in various ways whether it be through workshops speaking, or one-on-one conversations, group coaching; what do you specifically enjoy about working with clients?

Jessica Van Roekel:  I love walking them through their Fascinate Report.  I love hearing the excitement in their voice.

Andrea:   Let’s make sure that the listener knows what the Fascinate Report is and actually, we’ve talked about this quite a bit on the podcast before, but it’s been a while.  So, just so you know, the Fascinate Report is something that we use at scale with teams because it’s really simple to take, and it’s simple to understand people. It’s remarkably accurate, and it really focuses on one’s unique way of influencing and your voice.  So, as you were saying, you really enjoy walking people through this report.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes, I do a one-on-one conversation with each person that has taken this report, and we’ll spend the first few minutes just talking about the results from their report.  And it is so fun to hear them say, “I can’t believe how accurate this,” or “Wow, this describes me to a T. I can’t believe that this quick little evaluation was able to really declare and to describe who I am.”  That is really exciting to me.

And then it’s also really fun to hear them in their own voice then say, “Yeah, I’ve seen this trait happen, you know, a few weeks ago or yesterday.  This is what I’ve done,” and they’ll tell me a story about the fact that they are really creative thinkers. And so they’ll pull out their stories from their own life as an example of how this adjective or this description really fits them.  And then what we get to do is we get to take that report and then help them come up with an anthem, which an anthem is who they are when they’re at their best. What they’re going to bring to the table, it’s their adjective and their noun, and we get to come up with this.

But what I love the most is that in my last set of interviews, I had three people that had the same archetype on the Fascinate Assessment.  In the Fascinate Assessment, you have seven advantages that combine to make forty-nine different archetypes. And what was so unique is that they each came up with their own unique anthem, and I found that to be so fascinating that these three people that came up with the same archetype had their own individual anthem.  That excited me to see them come to that conclusion and say, “Okay, this is what I bring to the table. This is what my voice is in this company.”

Andrea:  That’s super exciting, and I know that people really enjoy talking with you.  So, it’s fun to hear about that. Now, let’s move to the Voice of Influence six-month group coaching program.  You were part of the first group of people or one of the first groups of people, anyway, to go through this group coaching program.  So, let’s talk about that for a minute. There are six subjects that are covered in that program. For the listeners, I just want you to know, these are the six subjects; your Purpose, your Style, your Mission, your Offering, your Strategy, and your Community.  And as we go through the program, you get a sense of all these things for yourself. You sort of define them. You apply them to your life, and then you figure out what you’re going to do about it, what is the actual practical application.

So, Jessica, when it came to you and when you first took this course that now you help lead, what was one of the subjects that really made a difference for you?

Jessica Van Roekel:  Subject to style made a huge difference for me.  That’s the subject that really kind of delved into the Fascinate Assessment, and it’s almost as if that subject… things started to coalesce.  They started to come together. All of these random thoughts that I had about myself and my past interactions with other people and why in some instances, they were successful and why in other instances, they were just a dismal failure.  And I just fell flat on my face, just splat, and other times I was like, “Wow that was amazing!” It was almost like this subject under style, it’s almost like all of a sudden, all those situations… the dots started connecting. It started connecting and that to me was super exciting.

Andrea:  Why does that matter, do you think, for a person when they want to find their voice of influence?

Jessica Van Roekel:  We often take a look at ourselves in the light of, “This is how I see the world,” and the Fascinate Assessment is different and in fact say, “This is how the world sees you.”  And sometimes, we see ourselves through a jaded lens or we see ourselves through our own past experiences, whether positive or negative, and that can cloud the judgment of ourselves.  That at times we don’t rightly render correct judgments about who we are; whether it’s someone that said that aspect of your personality is wrong, or it’s too loud, or too quiet, or we decide that for ourselves based on how we think people have responded to us.

And subject number two is mostly about your style, and how your identity and your voice and all of that works together to see that this is how people see me when I’m at my best really validated a part of my heart that wasn’t so sure was an okay part of my heart or part of myself.  And so for me, it gave me a sense of release. It gave me a sense of freedom that, “Oh, that social thing that I do, that’s okay. You mean, thinking out of the box, that’s a benefit to other people?” For me, it was just really freeing. It was like “Okay, okay, maybe this is gonna work.  Maybe if I start instead of shoving that voice in a closet where it kind of…”

You know how when you’re a kid, and you play this game with your sibling – you’re not really playing a game, you’re fighting with them – and you shove them in the closet, and then they’re trying to get out?  The person inside the closet or the bedroom door, they’re trying to pop that door open, and the other siblings on the other side just pushing that door shut. So, you hear this bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and it’s almost like that voice, that catalyst that’s in me was on the inside of that door – bang, bang, bang – trying to get out and something – whether it was my own wrong judgment myself or maybe it was other people’s misinterpretation or misunderstanding of me or combination of all of that – was on the other side of that door trying to hold that shut.

And when I went through this subject about style, it was like that door just got busted wide open.  I’m like, “I am setting her free. It is okay. We’ll figure out all this other stuff of why I’m a flop in some situations, but for right now we’re going to teach this voice how to walk.”

Andrea:  Oh gosh, I love that.  You know, I’ve noticed with this particular assessment and working with people on it, that usually people either feel like, “Oh good I get to be released in this who I am,” or it’s, “I feel bad, I’m sort of, like, I’m bragging about myself if I admit that I am this person.”  And what’s interesting to me about this – and I’ve talked about this before on the podcast – is that both of those statements have to do with how we’re judging ourselves and each other. And we’re sort of placing a certain kind of personality, or a way of influence, or that sort of thing…

And we’re sort of placing a certain kind of personality above or below other kinds of personalities and seeing some as being more valuable, seeing others as being more problematic when in truth each one could be super valuable.  And there are things about our personalities that are problematic for everybody. One of the things that we don’t shy away from is admitting that, yes, there are some weaknesses here that you’re going to have to navigate. And the fact that this piece of your voice is a strength is also… you need to understand it can be a strength for good, or it can be a strength for hurting people.

So, to come to an awareness of, “Okay, how can I use this in a strong way that is going to actually benefit other people instead of hurting them, or hurting my cause, or whatever?”  That’s a really powerful moment for people, so it’s fun to hear you talk about your own experience with that.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Yes.  Thank you.  I just still get giddy thinking about it, and I do believe that those times when I went flop, flat on my face, you know, I know what was happening.  Double trouble creates trouble. That’s just what happens.

Andrea:  When your personality becomes so strong, and you’re motivated from more of a fear and you are insecure, or there’s stress that’s pushing you to the limits, it’s pretty hard to not come across with your strength in a negative way.

Jessica Van Roekel:  That’s right.  Every strength or every negative can be flip-flopped.

Andrea:  Yeah, so important for people to understand and see and know how to navigate that.  We’re not bound. We’re not stuck in a closet, we can emerge powerful and strong and yet also loving, and that is a huge piece of being a voice of influence.  So, in that in that six-month group coaching program, you and I were talking about how there’s sort of two different halves to this program. Can you tell the audience about the two different halves, and why that matters?

Jessica Van Roekel:  Okay, so the two different halves, the first half is really a lot of inner reflection.  It’s about diving deep into your mission, what motivates you, your style, your purpose; all of this has to be worked out internally inside first before it can be applied.  So we take the first half of the group coaching program, and we dive deep inside ourselves and really do some reflection and thinking. And then we take that information, and we move into the second half of the group coaching program where we begin to practice.  Like I said earlier, we teach our voice how to walk, and we dive through, and we figure out how we can apply our strengths in a positive way to influence others.

So, there’s strategy, and there’s how we interact with the people that we are working with.  That’s how the group program is split up. It’s inward, and then once we have that inward settled, we then move outward.

Andrea:  Yes.  And I will say that it’s not that you can’t combine the two, but that is sort of the focus.  Because this is a group coaching program, because this is a specific kind of way that we are… you know, a path that we’re guiding people down, we do focus on that inner work first.  So that is a very helpful description. Thank you for that, Jessica.

And one of the things that we focus on is strategic thinking and increasing somebody’s ability to think in terms of, “Where are we, where we’re trying to go, and then how do we get there?”  That’s one of the things that really comes out in that second half as well as, “How do we apply my voice? How does my voice impact my specific community? Whether that be these are the people that I am around and these are the different roles that I play, but these are also the roles that other people play in my life.”

And to be clear on those, so that we don’t get too confused about how we speak to whom because that matters, context matters with our voice.  And we have to understand that, yes, though we can be authentic at any point and time with anybody in any situation, we’re still very complicated, and we have the ability to really think about who we’re speaking with and how to interact with that specific person.  So, it’s important to kind of get a sense of how to apply one’s voice in different situations and different roles and contexts.

So, Jessica, as we’re wrapping up this conversation, I would like to ask you to consider and to share with the audience what is maybe one specific thing or piece of advice that you would have for somebody who really would like to have a voice of influence?

Jessica Van Roekel:  Let me just take a minute to think about that answer.  Okay, my piece of advice for someone who’s looking for a way to develop their voice of influence is to be willing to get uncomfortable to be comfortable.  And what I mean by that is that so often we shy away from doing the inner work, and we just focus on the behavior. But in order for behavior to truly change and to truly make a difference in someone else’s life, we have to know what’s going on on the inside, and that can be uncomfortable.  But uncomfortable doesn’t mean wrong or bad, it just means uncomfortable. We’re just doing some hard work. But the benefits of doing that is going to make the actionable behaviors long-lasting and influential beyond what we can really even imagine. And then secondly… can I give two pieces of advice?

Andrea:  Sure, sure!  That was great, by the way.  I love that.

Jessica Van Roekel:  Have fun.  Have fun. It’s fun to really discover the power of your voice to influence others and not in a smarmy, manipulative kind of way, but in a way that is affecting good change and good benefits for someone else, or your company, or the greater good, or whatever it is that you’re involved in.  Have fun because it’s just so much fun! That’s all. You can cut that part out, but it’s just fun.

Andrea:  No, I love it!  I love it! I don’t know that anybody’s ever said the word smarmy on the podcast before, and it just makes me smile.  That’s hilarious! I love it! So, Jessica, where can people find you? Where can they find your blog and connect with you online, specifically?

Jessica Van Roekel:  My blog is welcomegrace.com.  I couldn’t use my name because most people can’t spell it and/or pronounce it, so, welcomegrace.com.  It’s a place where I encourage others in their walk with the Lord; I am a Christian and have found that all of us have pasts or pieces of our past that want to derail our present and affect our future.  And I come from a stance where, “You know what, yes, your pasts matter. It did happen to you, but it doesn’t have to derail you.” So, I write from a place where our personal histories don’t have to define our present or determine our future.

So, I can be found there, and then I also freelance at crosswalk.com, and ibelieve.com, and then I’m on Facebook and Instagram, Jessica Van Roekel.

Andrea:  And Jessica, we’ll be sure to link to those places in our show notes.   So, you can find our show notes at voiceofinfluence.net. And at voiceofinfluence.net, you can also request information about how you can potentially have a conversation with Jessica.  We have a contact form on our website, and there you can just let us know that you’re interested in connecting with Jessica.

Maybe you’re interested in doing some coaching with Jessica or perhaps even this group coaching program for your company, you know, managers, whatever it might be, and you can message us there at voiceofinfluence.net, connect with us.  We’d be happy to schedule a call and talk with you more about those possibilities.

So, Jessica, thank you so much for being a voice of influence for our listeners today and for our clients.  We just really, really appreciate you!

Jessica Van Roekel:  Thank you so much!  It’s been a pleasure and a blast talking with you!