Redeem Power with Diane Langberg, Ph.D.
//Are you aware of the kinds of power that you hold in your relationships? So often we’re more aware of the times when we feel powerless, and so we don’t handle the power we possess in healthy ways. Today, psychologist and author Dr. Diane Langberg joins Andrea to discuss key elements of establishing psychological safety in relationships, what’s necessary to heal from trauma, and why exercising influence must always be a two-way street.
Diane Langberg, Ph.D. is globally recognized for her 47 years of clinical work with trauma victims. She has trained caregivers and church leaders on six continents on how to recognize and respond to trauma and the abuse of power in a healing way. Her most recent book is Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church (Brazos).
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Transcript
Hey there! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. Today, I have with me Dr. Diane Langberg, and she is the author of the book Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church.
Dr. Langberg, I am so thrilled that you’re here with us today. This is an important work.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I’m glad to be here.
Andrea: Well, we’re talking about this particular topic because our audience really does care about having healthy influence. And that’s kind of sometimes tricky because the idea of influence itself, it sorts of evokes this idea that we are having influence on someone else. Our particular position is that we influence one another, that true influence is collaborative. What are your thoughts on that, in particular?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, if one sees influences only a one-way street, I think, right there, you’ve already created a danger zone. Because what matters is how I affect you and teach you and shape you and all of those things, but not for me to be shaped or changed or look at myself and ask questions or whatever. And I’ve learned, you know… I’ve been a psychologist for forty some [years] and somewhere in there was startled in learning, very clearly the fact that my clients were not the only ones in the room who were changing.
Andrea: Hmm, yes.
Dr. Diane Langberg: They were influencing me in profound ways that have lasted a lifetime and for which I am ever grateful. And nobody told me that going in, and it didn’t occur to me. But any kind of relationship is a two-way street, even if one person doesn’t say anything. And so, it is a two-way street influence, never a one-way street. And if it is, it’s dangerous.
Andrea: I agree. So, let’s dive into your book a little bit here. We talk about this because it directly and indirectly impacts whether or not people feel comfortable, this idea of the abuse of power or power dynamics… whether or not people feel comfortable or able to use their voice in many contexts. And you have a lot of experience in helping people who have experienced abuse. Would you give us some context for why, or let’s start with how widespread is abuse?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, actually, we don’t know the answer to that. We only know what’s reported. And a lot of what’s reported is reported later because of the factors that make it scary to report. And historically, whether it’s churches or corporations or educational systems or anything else, any response to a report is to get rid of it, cover it up, shut it up because it will damage the institution. And so, the concern for the individuals is not running the show at all. As a matter of fact, it’s being put underground.
So, if you just take sexual abuse, you know, the standard stats are one in four girls and one in six boys are sexually abused before the age of eighteen. So, if you sit in a room full of women or a room full of men, just count them off in your head, it’s staggering. It’s also low because that’s what we know.
Andrea: Right. Can you help us to kind of… I mean, I think we all kind of know this in our minds and our hearts someplace, but why is it so important that we address the individual and take care of the individual when it does seem like we’ve got to take care of the institution? You know, that there is something to protect there as well. But why is the individual what we should be really paying attention to in situations like this?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Oh, you wouldn’t even have an institution if there weren’t individuals. Human beings are what make things happen.
Andrea: Yep.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Human beings are who build things, who construct, who tear down, who create gorgeous arts and beautiful music and war. So, who the individuals are, how they’ve been affected in their lives, how that has shaped them and the choices they make as adults is a very, very important. And to preserve something that individuals have put together that’s corrupt, it’s like people ⎼ which they did ⎼ preserving the Nazi institution.
Andrea: Yeah.
Dr. Diane Langberg: So, we can produce something hellish, protect something hellish, destroy human beings, and then there’s nothing.
Andrea: From what I understand, coercion is using force or threat to get people to do what you want them to do. Let’s say, somebody who is responsible for others ⎼ a manager, an executive, a teacher, or leader of some kind ⎼ they want to maintain healthy boundaries. So, they know that behavior is important, and they know that maintaining those healthy boundaries is important, but they also don’t want to do it in a coercive kind of way. How do we know when we’re just using healthy influence and accountability without being coercive?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, part of that is understanding the power that we hold. Most people aren’t very aware of their own power. What they’re most aware of is when they feel powerless.
Andrea: That’s so good.
Dr. Diane Langberg: So, we don’t like that feeling so we look for other ways to be powerful. People don’t realize, for example, if you are male and weigh 220 pounds and you’re talking to a woman who weighs 115, you have a lot of power. And it impacts her whether it’s ever articulated or not. If you’re really good with words and you’re with somebody who isn’t so good, you have verbal power. If you’re in a position of authority, you have emotional power, whether that be a teacher, or a coach, or a pastor, or anybody like that. And you can have power of knowledge, right? You know, I have a PhD. If I’m talking to somebody who went through sixth grade, I have power of knowledge.
So, most of the time, people in leadership have multiple types of power. Not one. They certainly have power position if they’re in leadership. Very few of them know that. Even fewer have assessed that and its impact on others. And what they’re more aware of is when they feel powerless, in which case, the way people typically work with that is to find ways to have more power. So, you end up with a tyrant in charge of a company or a church or whatever.
Andrea: Right. So, first of all, does there just need to be some, like, widespread education on when you have power? Like, helping people to understand that, “This is power and so you do have a responsibility with that power.” Or what do you suggest that is one of the first steps for helping those people who are actually unaware essentially?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I guess that’s part of why I wrote the book, you know, and getting a lot of responses from people saying, “I never thought about the kind of power I have,” or “I never thought about those different kinds of power.” And what does it do to other people to have somebody walk into a room who has five different kinds of power? Everybody in the room feels it. And that’s already affected everything, no matter how nice you are. So, part of it is education, and then of course ⎼ I’m a psychologist ⎼ part of it is self-examination. Which doesn’t mean you do it all by yourself ⎼ you do need to do that ⎼ but it also means to be safe enough for other people to tell you the truth about what it’s like to be with you.
So, when I disagree with you, what is that like for you? Do I need to change the way I do that? Do I shut you up when I disagree, or do I just tell us both to think about it more?” And people are scared to death to answer those questions when the person who’s asking them signs the checks, as it were, or has spiritual authority, or decides whether they get the degree or not. And so that requires not only learning about our own power and how to interact with people and invite feedback, but it also means we have to learn how to be safe enough for people to say what they think, which we’re a long way from that.
Andrea: Yeah. Oh, man, psychological safety. There’s so many different facets to it. So, I mean, I’m going to ask it again. I feel like I’m being a little redundant here, but I encounter a lot of people who do not understand the kind of power that they have or why it’s important to ask for that kind of feedback or how to even ask for that kind of feedback in a way where people will actually respond.
So, let’s say we have a leader who… they recognize that people are avoiding them, that people aren’t necessarily giving them feedback when they’re asking for it, but obviously, there’s a problem. How can they be more psychologically safe in that environment, or how can they ask for feedback in a way that might actually be safe enough for somebody else to share?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, the other piece that I would add to that is the person who is in power also needs to feel safe enough to look. So, if somebody asked me that for themselves, I would tell them to first find somebody outside the system.
Andrea: There you go.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Because that person, you know, can’t coddle you because they want their check or fire you because you said the wrong thing. It needs to be in a safe relationship where somebody understands these dynamics and can look at them with you, but whose life or livelihood or anything else isn’t on the line and neither is yours. Self-examination is not something humans are very good at and often see it as a threat.
Andrea: Certainly.
Dr. Diane Langberg: But if you don’t look, you can’t change. So, first, it has to be outside the system with somebody who can be with you and listen and educate and help you label things correctly. And so, “Why is it every time somebody in your board meetings wants to do something different than you do, you know, you go home and drink six glasses? What are you doing there? Why is that so devastating to you?” And a lot of times… not always, but a lot of times it goes back to ways we were shaped as kids. And it’s just the way we are, and it’s the way our family was, and it’s what we do, and it’s never been examined.
Andrea: So, once they examine themselves and they start to see things, is the next step to actually ask for feedback from others, or is that even particularly helpful at this point? Do they just need to start changing the way that they do things?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, yes, they do need to do that because they have to show some level of increased awareness of keeping other people safe ⎼ verbally, emotionally, and things like that. So, for example, somebody who blows up every time somebody disagrees with them or something, the next time somebody disagrees, they’ve learned enough and have enough self-control to stop and say, “I am keenly aware that when we’ve done this before, I’ve always done x. And that’s been hurtful, not just to you, but to me and to our relationship. And I don’t want to do that this time. So, I’m going to try and respond differently because I’m working on that. I might not do a terrific job. If you feel like it, I’d love feedback, both about the way it’s been or what I’m going to try now.” I mean, just saying that is a huge shift.
Andrea: It is. It’s so vulnerable.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes. I mean, you’re talking to somebody who’s vulnerable to you.
Andrea: Yep. And it positions you as a co-learner, as a co-experiencer of this relationship and of this life, which is something that can be hard to do when you feel like you’re supposed to have power, when you feel like you’re supposed to control things. So, you have to go through that self-awareness first in order to recognize that, “Maybe this is more me than I realized.”
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes.
Andrea: Yeah. So, with parenting, as a parent myself, I have this great desire for my children to have a voice, to be able to express themselves and that sort of thing. But at the same time, I recognize I still have to be “mom.” I have to hold boundaries, that sort of thing. Sometimes it feels difficult to walk that line between the two. And I’m kind of curious how you would describe the difference between that accountability that parents need to provide for their children while at the same time not stepping into that, you know, coercive by force or threat kind of situation.
It seems like that’s how kids oftentimes respond. They feel like it’s a threat, or they feel shame, or they feel things that you don’t want them to feel, but you’re just trying to hold that line for responsibility. What are your thoughts on parenting and how to apply this there?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I guess the first thing I would say is, obviously, the vulnerability of the child is huge. It’s over the top. And part of our work as parents, whether we know it or not, is that we’re teaching the child who they are by the way we treat them, whether they’re significant or not, what their gifting is, what they’re really good at, what’s hard for them, and how to handle hard things. But all of those things also shape the “I Am.”
So, if you’re always impatient when a child has trouble with math, you’re not just about math. You’re telling this child, “When you don’t do something right because it’s hard for you, there’s something wrong with you.” That’s what they end up with. We don’t want them to hear that, but we do want them to pay attention to what we’re working with.
And so, we do have to keep in mind, this is not just about the behavior in the moment, which it’s very easy to get reduced to that as a parent, especially if you have more than one child and you’re tired. But what we’re doing is telling them who they are in terms of their specialness, their vulnerabilities, their power, their gifting, all of those things. And we don’t want to crush those things. We want to shape them so they’re healthy, and so that has to be in our minds. Coercion ⎼ whether it’s parent and child, or boss and whatever, or pastor and somebody in the church ⎼ means it’s not safe to push back.
So, what you’re doing is telling somebody something in a way that will, “Make them do it,” which could be with a threat. It could be just the way you look at them. It could be all kinds of things, the tone of voice, whatever. And so, obviously, if you have a toddler about to run in the road and there’s a car coming, you don’t really give a rip about coercion.
Andrea: Yep. You just got to rescue them.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes. Worry about the rest of it later. But that’s not where most of parenting or leadership and all works. We’re not generally running out in roads picking people up so they don’t get killed. So, we do have to remember that what we want to do, when it’s possible, is not tell but invite.
Andrea: Yeah. Oh, I love that word so much.
Dr. Diane Langberg: If you look at the Gospels, that’s what Jesus said. He didn’t say, “You better figure this out. These are the laws of my father.” He said, “Come.” And so, I think that’s the way we should lead and everything else. And obviously, there are crises that need something. There are things, like I have to report child abuse and all those kinds. There are those situations, and we need to know what they are, and we need to handle them well. They are not the majority of human relationships.
And so, we want to be inviting, not only with our words, but with the way we are as a person and how we treat others. We want to invite. So, rather than saying to a kid, you know, “You’re supposed to set the table and you haven’t done it, and yah, dah, dah, dah, dah” ⎼ which is very common ⎼ we come alongside and invite. You know, “You have an important job, and I want to see you do it, and I know you’ll do it well, you know. Would you come and do this now?” It’s a very different impact. Probably will get a better result, actually.
Andrea: You know, I love doing that when I actually do it that way. But I mean, I think one thing that I have recognized is that if I do that and then I still get a push back from a kid, there’s usually something else going on with them.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes. Which means you need to be at their level and ask what’s happening.
Andrea: Yeah, you know, I did grow up hearing ⎼ not necessarily from my parents ⎼ but I remember hearing, you know, “Kids should obey right away, and they should not be questioning their parents.” I always did question my parents, so I have an understanding of how important that is. But what do you say in that situation where somebody feels like, “Well, but you shouldn’t question your parents. Your parents are the authority. You should treat them differently,” and that sort of thing?
Dr. Diane Langberg: You’re training your child to be vulnerable to an abuser is what you’re doing.
Andrea: Amen.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Because you’re not allowing them to have their own thoughts about it.
Andrea: Yep.
Dr. Diane Langberg: I think it’s also disrespectful. If you reverse it, you know, you’re the parent, you’re watching this great mystery on TV, and it’s got like three minutes left, and your kid says, “Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, I need you to come right now,” and you know, they really don’t. You want them to wait. You want them to respect you enough to wait the three minutes so you can find out who did it and then go to that.
Andrea: I love that.
Dr. Diane Langberg: But if they’re building something with Legos, and they have, like, one more tower to finish and you say, “Come right now,” and they don’t and they get punished, that’s not fair. It’s not respectful. It doesn’t allow for their life, their choices, what’s important to them. Now, if they stay in their room for an hour, that’s another matter. But there has to be elasticity in relationships, or they’ll all break.
Andrea: Hmm. I love that. “There has to be elasticity in relationships, or else they’ll all break.” Wow! So, we’re going to go up a few levels to culturally… you know, from the immediate parenting all the way up to we’re experiencing a lot of conversation right now around law enforcement, and how they use force or not, or the importance also of the accountability that they help provide. What do you have to say to this particular concern that people have right now around law enforcement and how force is used? How do we find a healthy balance in that?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I think the first thing that I would say is that the more power we have, the more we are at risk to misuse it. However, there are people who would never be safe without that kind of power. I mean, I’m a military kid. My father was a colonel in the Air Force. He had a lot of power. He was in World War II, dropping paratroopers over Normandy. If he didn’t have power and was using it, you know, more people would have died. And that’s true with cops or other law enforcement and things like that. They have to think on their feet in the middle of people shooting people.
And I think that has to be so understood and so respected. Because frankly, they’re doing that on my behalf so I don’t have to go in the middle of the guns. So, I have a tremendous respect for that, but I also know that the power required to do that job well is scary. Not just to other people, but to themselves. So, obviously, you can get carried away and shoot people you’re not supposed to shoot because you like feeling big or whatever. There’s temptations there I don’t have. And you have this, you know, trigger you can pull, and if you woke up ticked off in the morning, you’re dangerous.
So, it’s very, very easy, I think, for us to forget the complexity of it. But the power of it is such that it needs, I think ⎼ because they’re human just like us ⎼ constant oversight. Surveillance, if you would, because it’s so easy after certain number of years to be jaded. It’s so easy to drag your personal prejudices into what you’re doing. It’s so easy to shoot a gun. And the respect is required, but they need to also be taught and taught and taught the danger of the power they have to have to keep us safe.
You know, it’s like being in a lab where you work with cancer. You’re in danger of something happening to you physically if you don’t follow the rules and do the right things and wear the right gloves and all those things. I mean, the people who created the drugs and the vaccines for this had to work with something that could kill them. And so, I think it’s a very complicated thing, but I think that human beings at large have not done a good job of figuring out how all those things work together.
The same thing is true with pastors. I mean, they don’t generally go around shooting people with guns. They shoot them with their mouths. Seminaries, in general, do not spend a great deal of time talking about character. And the vital need for a solid Christ-like character, not only that you have, but that is nurtured all of your life, and has other people shining lights on it and calling you to account, and everything else, just like the cops. Because you’ll start thinking more of yourself, than you should. You’ll start deceiving yourself that doing something to feel better is okay because you’re doing such an important job.
Andrea: Your statement about, you know, being afraid of your own power, that’s something that I have felt before. I finally realized that that’s what I was experiencing when I just watched a movie. I watched Frozen, and I saw Elsa throwing ice. I was like, “Oh my goodness, she has so much power to do good. And yet, if she’s driven by fear, it ends up hurting people. That same power, ends up hurting people.”
Dr. Diane Langberg: Absolutely.
Andrea: That was scary for me. I was starting to realize… I mean, I kind of already knew, but I was starting to realize how I was kind of biting back at my children or whatever when they were little. Being tired, being overwhelmed, physically sensitive to different things, and then using that power to just try to push people away because I was afraid of myself. How do you see the role of just a physical… obviously, trauma is a piece of what you talk about. That physical overwhelm, what’s going on inside the brain. It’s not always spiritual, I guess, is what I’ve found. So how do you speak to this idea that we’re physical beings so sometimes our power, we’re using that power in poor ways because of our physical experience?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I’m a psychologist so I’d probably ask a hundred questions before I’d really answer that.
Andrea: I love it.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Because, you know, the worst answer in the world ⎼ but it’s a true one ⎼ is, “It depends.” There are people, who, because of their histories and things, feel chronically overwhelmed. It’s never not there. They don’t sleep right. They’re afraid of all human beings. They’re on the defensive, trying to protect themselves, really have no idea what that’s supposed to look like. That’s why they end up in my office, right?
But the fact is, all of us have times like that. And sometimes it’s because… I mean, if you were driving home from work and had a car accident, and it could have been so much worse two seconds earlier, but you walked away, you’re not going to be okay at dinner that night. And you’re not going to be okay the next time you get in a car, and all of those things. And so, certainly there are things… it’s all on a continuum.
But part of what we need in those times, whether it’s a one-time deal or a chronic thing or whatever, you know… I have a talk that I give on trauma. And I say, “To heal from trauma, you need three things. You need talking, tears, and time.” The talking is that there needs to be a safe place to tell the story. If you were just in an accident and it could have killed you but didn’t, you’re going to want to tell people. And you’re going to want to tell them, and then you want to tell somebody else again, and then you want to talk about it again. And then it’ll be in your sleep, and you’ll want to talk about it then.
The talking is over time and it needs other people. You can’t just do that yourself. And the tears are the emotional reactions. Terror that you felt, the tears that you shed, questions that it raises from a psychological standpoint, and you know, all kinds of things. And unfortunately ⎼ this is certainly true in the Christian world, but I think it’s at least generally true in the human world ⎼ we want people who feel upset to get over it quickly.
Andrea: Right.
Dr Diane Langberg: So, I listened to the story, and then tomorrow, you want to tell me again, and I’m thinking, “We did this already.” But that’s how you gain some mastery over it. What was completely overwhelming becomes smaller every time you tell it, every time you cry. And then of course, the third one is time, and we have no control over that. And I haven’t been able to figure that one out so I just know what’s required. And it depends, you know. If you have a life of chronic trauma, the time is endless. If you have a one-time thing that happened to you ten years ago, it’s not.
Andrea: So, knowing that so many people have experienced trauma in their lives… And maybe it’s sexual abuse, as you mentioned before, or it could be something as simple as my experience was when I gave birth to my son and just feeling out of control, and some things like this.
Anyway, there are things that we’ve all experienced that we bring to the table. So, for somebody who is a pastor, a leader, an executive, a manager, and they need to be aware of the fact that there are other people that… maybe they’ve experienced, but maybe they haven’t. And they need to be aware of the fact that other people have, it can feel a little overwhelming to try to be there for everybody or to do what they need to do to set forth in a culture of psychological safety. What kinds of things should they on a regular basis do? Is there anything else that you would recommend?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, you talked about bodily reactions and whatever a little bit ago. One of the things that I learned several decades ago, I guess, is that I needed to actively pursue antidotes to the work that I did.
Andrea: This is good. Everybody, please listen.
Dr. Diane Langberg: So, it was at a time when I was totally overwhelmed by the trauma that I was hearing and was saying I was going to quit. Obviously, I did not. So, I made a list of all the characteristics of what I was doing. It was ugly. It was cruel. It was crazy disorder. I worked with incest victims. Talk about ruination of families for generations. I worked with soldiers coming home, you know. The chaos, the noise… Anyway, I made this long list. What I realized is if I’m going to sit with this, I have to have this other list that I constantly pursue that are the antidotes to that. So, if my work is ugly, I need to seek beauty. What does that mean for me?
Well, currently, for me at this point in my life, it means going to a cottage that we have in the woods and being with four grandchildren and feeding turtles and doing all kinds of things, you know, learning the birds, all that stuff. If I’m hearing about chaos and disorder done to small children or women who are trafficked or whatever, I need order. Well, for me, that’s Bach. He never wrote a disorder note in his life.
Andrea: That is true.
Dr. Diane Langberg: So, music became… I mean, I’ve always loved music, but it became something that was necessary. Not something that I enjoyed, though I do very much, but I require it. I require beauty. So, I have spent decades deliberately pursuing the antidotes. And I don’t think I’d be sitting here today if I hadn’t. I’d have walked and probably been twisted up by it.
Andrea: It seems that a lot of people need to have some sort of self-expression in their antidote kind of bag, I guess. Would you say that your books are your self-expression, the release of something that’s going on inside of you, or is there something else maybe that you’ve already been mentioned that you would count as self-expression that allows it to come out in some way?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, certainly the writing is. I’ve been writing since I was a girl. It’s just always been there, just the topics have changed a bit.
Andrea: I’m sure.
Dr. Diane Langberg: The thing about writing, at least now, is it’s gathering up the suffering of more people than I can count that I’ve had the honor of knowing ⎼ not just in my office, but around the world ⎼ and putting things into words that really come from their voices. So, in many ways, it’s not just for me, but it’s their gift to other sufferers, which I consider a great honor to do. So, yes, writing is part of it. But you know, I spent, I don’t know, since I was a girl, forty years playing the piano. So, that was part of it, and I haven’t done that for twenty years. But I’m now trying ⎼ and this is a very important word here ⎼ to learn the dulcimer.
Andrea: Oh, yes.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Because I have kids and grandkids who play string things and sit around, and they wanted me to play something, too, and I can’t cart a piano around. So, yes, those things; words, music, both in and out, are important.
Andrea: Moving into the more of the person who’s on the other side of leadership, if you will, so, somebody that has experienced the misuse of power. You state that, “Misuse of power always involves self-deception and the deception of others, and that vested interest in outcomes can result in others becoming complicit in maintaining that deception.” So, what would you say to the person who is keeping their head down, just not wanting to expose their own vulnerability within a corrupt system because they fear the backlash that whistleblowers usually face?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I would say, first of all, the backlash is not just a fear. I mean, when they expose things, you know, people get mad. Which means it needs to be done… if you choose to do it, it means that you have to decide how and how you’re going to be as safe as you can be. So, I always encourage people ⎼ and this is particularly true for victims, but anybody who knows ⎼ is to make sure that you have a safe place, safe person or people to talk to about it that have nothing to do with that system.
You know, the same thing I would say to the leader. Because you don’t want to just jump in and speak in a way that makes you easily dismissed. I mean if you want to stick your neck out, you want to see change. You also don’t want to become the next victim of whatever it is. I mean, that’s hardly a way to help, and you’re worth protecting. You’re a human being. You’re worth protecting. So, I end up oddly enough slowing people down because of those things that need to happen. “Okay, we can talk about how you want to do this, but let’s talk about you first and where your strengths are dealing with this, where your weaknesses are, how you take care of yourself, what are you doing now,” you know, whatever.
So, I just think that we don’t want more train wrecks or more casualties in blowing whistles. But I do think that people have not and need to wrestle with the fact that if I’m, let’s say, in a church and I know that the youth pastor has been sexually molesting boys and I don’t say anything and I let it keep happening, I’m complicit. And nobody likes to hear that. I get that, I don’t like it, but I am. And so, I either have to tell myself deceptive things to say, “Well, maybe it really isn’t happening. Maybe these six or eight boys are just making this stuff up. Maybe, maybe, maybe, I don’t know.” I have to deal with carrying the information and doing nothing about it, which makes me a participant on some level. I’m not an abuser, but I’m not a truth-teller either.
Now, obviously, in a situation like that with probably minor boys and everything else, I would direct then to law enforcement and all those kinds of things. But there are also many cases of abuse in, you know… suppose there’s a pastor who’s a real bully and just tearing people up with the way he talks to them, and nobody wants to say anything because if they say anything, they’re going to get torn up. So, you have to do it in a way that takes care of the whistleblower.
And if somebody’s asking you what to do, you have to keep in mind that it’s the whistleblower or observer person who gets to make the decision, not you. And they might not make it for three years, whatever. You know, the thing that I would do with somebody in a situation like that is, “If you do this, you may have to leave the system. Are you prepared to do that?”
So, that happens in marriages. Somebody who has been battered by a husband for years in ways that nobody can see because it’s always hidden by clothes, and finally, “You know, I’m done with this. I wanna go tell people. I wanna bring it to the light.” “Okay, we need to think about that, because he could kill you. And you’re going to have to get out. You can’t tell, and then go home and go to bed. That’s not gonna work.”
So, the same thing is true with a church or any other kind of institution. You know, if you’re going to blow a whistle, you are unlikely to be safe in that system. Even if it’s just emotionally, whatever, verbally, and not physically. So those things have to be thought through carefully before we take our steps. But what we have lost sight of is ⎼ and I speak about all of this in churches most of time ⎼ that we preserve the system, not the people, and that’s all messed up. It’s not how it’s supposed to go.
And so, we don’t tell, or we tell lies, or we pretend, or we do whatever to preserve the system because somewhere it carries the name of God, but it looks nothing like Him. And then we are complicit in that evil. I mean, He tore down His temples multiple times because of these kinds of things, you know, and we’re protecting those temples,
Andrea: Right. He wasn’t afraid of that. He wasn’t afraid of them being tore down.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Nope.
Andrea: Yeah. So, the idea of self-preservation or self-protection is an interesting one to me because I recognize that there are times when, obviously, I need to protect myself and like you said, you’re worth protecting. And then there are times when I protect myself ⎼ and I’m not really sure how to make the distinction, maybe you can help me with this ⎼ I want to say out of fear, but the other’s out of fear as well. So, self-protection that ends up being selfish? Refusing to take risks or protecting myself, let’s say, like you were mentioning before, self-deception in order to protect myself, to preserve what I already have. What is the difference between protecting myself in a really healthy way because I deserve being protected, and protecting myself in a way that ends up probably harming others, maybe? I’m not sure what the distinction is. Could you help me with that?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, I’m not really sure there’s an absolute clear line first of all, or if there is, I haven’t found it yet.
Andrea: I haven’t either, which is why I’m asking you.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, there are very few super clear things like that in humanity. You can protect yourself by talking to somebody outside the system. You can protect yourself by articulating something to someone else who can help you articulate it better, who can help you think who to go to, and what to do if they don’t listen, and where to go next, and all of those things. All of that protects you. Not 100%, obviously, because eventually you’re going to say something. But there’s wisdom in doing it that way. You can’t just, you know… let’s go back to the church again. You can’t just walk into church one Sunday and stand up in the middle of the service and say, “That pastor’s just having sex with six women.” It’s not going to work very well.
Andrea: That’d be a little problematic.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes, and not get the result you’re looking for. So, I think we have to broaden. Protection doesn’t mean, “Nothing bad happens to me.” There is no such protection on this earth.
Andrea: Yeah.
Dr. Diane Langberg: But there is wisdom in handling something like this in a way that’s careful and not done alone and all of those things. I mean, that’s how things like Me Too sprung up, you know, that we can’t do this alone and in fact, no, you can’t. That’s hard. It’s not good. It’s better to have others involved with you, and they have perspectives you won’t have. So, I think we have to not make it so clear cut, first of all, but the fact is that one of the reasons many people keep things covered up is because they don’t want to bother their lives. If in fact the pastor is having sex with six women and I know it and it’s pretty clear from the evidence standpoint and everything else and I do nothing, I’m doing something.
Andrea: That’s where we become complicit.
Dr. Diane Langberg: Yes, because there’s going to be a seventh woman and an eighth. And so, you know, we tend to either be knee-jerk reactive without caring for ourselves before we enter into such a thing or turn a blind eye. And what we do in doing that is that, “I don’t really care that he’s having sex with six women and there will be more.” We don’t talk to ourselves like that. We say, “He’s such a good this and such a good that, and look how many people are coming. And there’s so many people being helped in this church.” And that’s where we’re deceiving ourselves.
Andrea: Mhmm. I have just a couple more questions. And first, I want to ask for someone who has been traumatized and is seeking help, what should they be looking for ⎼ either signs of health or red flag ⎼ when they’re accepting help from somebody? How do they know who to go to? You know, what are those red flags or the signs of health?
Dr. Diane Langberg: Well, people call the office all the time, looking for somebody who has expertise in trauma, who, you know, lives 1000 miles away, so it obviously can’t be my office. And so, we generally say to them, number one, if it’s a Christian, there are a couple of Christian organizations that have resources, licensed therapists. So, I suggest that they find somebody who’s licensed in the state because those have ethical requirements. And if somebody isn’t following them, you have somewhere to go. With an unlicensed person, there’s no place to go. So that’s one level of safety.
Two, I tell them that they need to ask to talk to the person and one of the questions they need to ask is, “Do you work with trauma? What kind/kinds? And how long have you done so? And can you give me some approximate figure of how many victims you’ve worked with?” I couldn’t give anybody approximately, but that’s because I’m old. What I have found is that people will say, “Yes, I work with trauma. I’ve been working with trauma for about three years.” “How many victims have you worked with?” There’s a long pause, and they say, “One.”
Andrea: Okay, yeah.
Dr. Diane Langberg: So, if that’s what you choose to do and see somebody, I mean, that’s fine. You know, “Are you getting supervision for it? Do you see somebody to help you with it?” There’s all kinds of therapists out there like that who are wonderful and working hard toward learning more. They have little experience, but they need consultation with people or whatever. But those are rightful questions to ask. And so, if somebody says, “No, I’ve never worked with trauma before, but I’m sure we’ll be fine, that’s an arrogant answer. You don’t know if you’ll be fine. Trust me, you don’t know if you’ll be fine.
I think people… and of course, we’re talking often about victims then who need to ask questions to protect themselves, which is not their natural instinct. That part’s been crushed. But if they have a script like that, most of them will do that. And it helps them find somebody who has expertise and experience. And if anybody’s offended by the question, you know, that answers the question.
Andrea: Dr. Langberg, thank you so much for being here with us today. This has been such a beautiful and nuanced conversation, and I really, really appreciate it. First of all, where can people find your book and your work?
Dr. Diane Langberg: The easiest places is on my website, which is my name. It’s dianelangberg.com. So, all the books are there. There’s a few blogs. There’s a lot of videos of talks I’ve given here in the States and around the world. They’re free. You can listen to them. They’re on trauma and all kinds of things, abuse.
Andrea: Great! And we will link to that in the show notes, so you can come to voiceofinfluence.net and find that if you can’t find it just by searching.
And then my final question for you today is what last kind of piece of advice would you have for somebody who wants to have a healthy Voice of Influence?
Dr. Diane Langberg: I guess it would have to be to really, always keep making sure that you’re listening, and by that, I don’t just mean to words. But when you talk to people about something that you want to influence or whatever, what do they see in your face? What do you see in their face? Is it, “Back up?” Do they shut down? All those nuances that humans do when they don’t feel safe? If you’re influencing or wanting to influence something, pay a lot of attention to their nonverbals with you because people will smile and say, “Oh, you’re right, I shouldn’t be doing that.” Or “I didn’t know I was hurting people, I won’t do that anymore,” whatever. There’s a brush over in the words. It’s shallow.
And so, you want to present things in a way that invite, so you don’t scare people away when they need to hear what you have to say in order to do better at what they’re doing. But at the same time, you need to really pay attention to the verbal and nonverbal nuances in their response to you. And if you sit down with somebody and say, “You know, I noticed when you talk to people, blah, blah, blah, and it’s hurting a lot of people,” and they never come back to you again after that… You know, those kinds of things that indicate that, “I pretended to listen because you were sitting in front of me, and I don’t really want to listen at all.”
Andrea: Thank you so much! Thank you for this beautiful conversation and for the work that you’re doing, for being a Voice of Influence in conversation with others.
Dr. Diane Langberg: You’re welcome! Thank you for having me!
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