Advocating for Undersestimated Communities with Chanda Smith Baker
//Chanda Smith Baker has over 20 years of experience working in, for, and with underestimated communities. In 2017, Chanda joined The Minneapolis Foundation as the Senior Vice President of Impact where she oversees the Foundation’s grantmaking programs, provides strategic direction to community initiatives and partnerships, and is the event and podcast host of the award-winning Conversations with Chanda. Previously, Chanda served at Pillsbury United Communities where she led the complex community-based nonprofit to pursue bold strategies to address systemic inequities. She spent 17 years at the organization and served in a variety of leadership positions before assuming the role of President and CEO in 2011. Under her leadership as CEO, the organization launched several impactful efforts such as the purchase and relaunch of North News and the opening of North Market, a full-service grocery store in North Minneapolis.
In addition to Chanda’s civic leadership being recognized with a variety of awards and commendations, she has served on numerous nonprofit and philanthropic boards throughout her career. Chanda is a proud native and current resident of North Minneapolis.
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Transcript
Hey there! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. Today, I have with me Chanda Smith Baker, and I’m pumped to be sharing her with you today. She has over 20 years of experience working in, for, and with underestimated communities, which we’ll have her define in a minute.
In 2017, Chanda joined the Minneapolis Foundation as Senior Vice President of Impact, where she oversees the foundation’s grant-making programs, provides strategic direction to community initiatives and partnerships, and is the event and podcast host of the award-winning Conversations with Chanda.
Previously, Chanda served at Pillsbury United Communities where she led the complex community-based nonprofit to pursue bold strategies to address systemic inequities. She spent 17 years at the organization and served in a variety of leadership positions before assuming the role of president and CEO in 2011. Chanda has won numerous awards and has impacted many people through her work on many foundations and advisory boards.
So, Chanda, it is so good to have you on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Chanda Smith Baker: I’m so excited to be here. I really appreciate the invitation.
Andrea: Oh, yeah. I don’t know, I’m always kind of taking in information, looking at news articles and clippings, or actually more videos than clippings. Let’s be real, I’m less of a reader and more of a video person. But I saw something about Isaiah Oliver. I googled him and I’m like, “Ooo, he’s on a podcast!” And then I came over to you and found your conversation with him and I found you both so intriguing.
And so, I really wanted to have this conversation with you and highlight your voice, because you have a podcast yourself, and it’s Conversations with Chanda. But you do a lot more of asking other people questions, and I really wanted to ask you some questions. I could tell there’s a lot there.
Chanda Smith Baker: I appreciate that. I do. I am, you know, first… Isaiah Oliver, just an outstanding leader. I met him, actually, in another city. I heard about him, and I can’t remember where it was. But he walked by me. He goes, “You’re Chanda, right?” And I’m like, “Why do you know this?” And I was there as part of a group. He of course did all his homework and did all of that stuff. But anyway, just an outstanding leader leading the community foundation in Flint.
Andrea: Yes, yes! Yes, I was really struck by some of the things that you guys talked about. So, that’s why we’re here today. And tell us a little bit about your role now at the Minneapolis Foundation. And if you don’t mind, just kind of explain what exactly do you mean by “underestimated communities”?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Let’s start there, because I think that that is sort of the foundation of how I’ve approached my work, which is one of being an African American woman who is from the North Side of Minneapolis and the North Side, for listeners that may be less familiar, has been considered an African American community. It is a complex in a lot of ways but has been sort of the home in most people’s minds of a lot of the disparities and challenges and problems to solve.
And what I said is that growing up in that community that not only do you sort of have sort of the gender issues, the race issues, but you also have geographical stereotypes. And I remember having people talk about the North Side in ways that didn’t represent my experience, and I still live in that community, and that is still the case. There are things that need to be improved on, but there’s so much that has been given to me and that I’ve contributed to.
And so, I think often when you already have an opinion that gets translated into truth about a person, a people, a community, and a neighborhood that you’re not able to see the possibilities. And I have felt underestimated. My peers have felt underestimated. I’ve seen my children be underestimated and other people’s children be underestimated. That it’s not that they did not, that we did not, that the community does not have lots of assets. It’s an inability of other people to see the assets and to highlight them in a way that is as considerate and respectful as it ought to be.
Andrea: I would love to hear more about what you do, then, to serve these communities, to serve your own community.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. I mean, my work throughout my career has been consistent of finding ways to create conditions for people to be at their most successful place; you know, to provide inspiration, access, resources, for good ideas to emerge, for leadership to flourish. I’ve done that in all the roles that I’ve had. And most currently, I’m at the Minneapolis Foundation as a chief impact officer.
And a lot of that work could be talked about in terms of our financial support that we provide through grants to nonprofits. But it also is the way that we convene. It also was the podcast that we deliver through the foundation. It also was the role of leadership and convening. And so, we look at all of the levers, is what we call them, all of the ways in which we can have impact.
And I help sort of braid them together to make sure that we are showing up where community needs this to show up, which is both in the problems and the possibilities, right?
Like we find things that are very promising that have demonstrated their effectiveness. And we also sit in the middle of some complicated issues that need solving, by not centering our voice as the solver of the problems, but creating the table, being at the table, contributing the tables that bring in diversity of thought and experience that is hopefully guided by lived experience that allows for the gap between the problem and the promise to be closed.
Andrea: It seems creative, like pulling things together and people together; it’s relational. You know, we talk about agency a lot here with Voice of Influence, the importance of other people expressing their own agency in the midst of being or sharing influence.
So, influence isn’t just something that one person acts on another but it’s mutual. We are mutually influenced by one another and that the other person being able to express that agency is absolutely essential to actually things moving forward in a way that’s really truly problem solving, rather than just like, we’re just going to fix a problem and move on and that sort of thing.
It sounds like a lot of what you do has to do with making sure that, first of all, the agency is already being expressed and then you come in and you provide additional opportunity. How else do you see philanthropy in the work that you’re doing coinciding with this idea of agency?
Chanda Smith Baker: You know, agency is a great word. You know. I think being able to identify how agency shows up. So, it does not look the same for everyone on how it shows up. Sometimes agency is just being quiet at the table because you just don’t know how and when to get in. But it doesn’t mean that you’re not finding other ways to get in to make a difference.
So, I think that is part of my role: to understand that sometimes someone’s agency might be changing their child’s school or leaving a school, because they don’t know how to navigate the system they’re in. So, they’re using the agency that they know. And I think, you know, how philanthropy can show up is by pushing the systems in which we work that are contributing to the safety and the success and helpfulness of our communities to be inclusive and thoughtful in the way that they are relating to communities, but to people within those communities that are not monolithic, right?
That, you know, if you believe that everyone has sort of a purpose, and that they can bring a point of view and you value that, then the way I think we operate would be very, very different in terms of how we surface and how we implement solutions. I mean, I see it more specifically with our donors that see an issue and they give dollars to the issue that they may not completely understand it. But they know they want to make a difference.
And frankly, most of us don’t completely understand anything. But we jump in it, and I think jumping in it is the most important thing, knowing that it’s not going to be perfect but I care enough to be in the game.
Andrea: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: You know, whatever the game is, “I want in, Coach!” And so I think philanthropy is very much, especially, in a community foundation, you have the opportunity to say, “Come on in, be part of the team.” And us together can both appreciate your individual expertise, and then the collective, the power of the collective, you can do both / and.
Andrea: Hmm. What does that look like? Like, do you have any examples, or can you paint a picture of what does it look like to actually come into that conversation? What do you do?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I mean, you know, George Floyd: what happened in our city following his murder was that there were a lot of people that maybe hadn’t been as close to the issue of policing, that maybe didn’t understand the racial dynamics that existed within our city, that maybe was unaware of the complexity of relationships between police and communities of color. Like all of these things were coming together in a way that many people in our city, state, nation and world were seeing in a very different way.
There were folks that were saying, “Look, I want to learn differently.” You know, it takes agency to say, “I don’t know, and I want to learn,” right? “I’m going to be committed to learning.” Or you can take a stance and say, “I already feel like I know enough.” But that’s not what I saw. I saw people taking action to say, “I need to learn more about this.” But while they were also deciding to learn more about it, “while I’m learning, I can contribute to a solution. Maybe not as the voice of opinion to drive the solution, but I can certainly contribute to those that have the expertise, that have the lived experience. Our trusted community partners, I can support them, I can be, you know, providing the necessary support and acknowledgement that’s needed in this moment for work to happen.”
And so, I think that that is the way. You know, I’ve seen people show up in protests that have never done that. I see people paying attention to public policy in different ways. And I’m also watching people wrestle with their own sense of self and identity in moments like this, which I think it takes courage, if not agency, but it takes a degree of courage to look at a problem and look at oneself to say, “What is it that I need to understand and do more of?”
Andrea: In humility,
Chanda Smith Baker: In humility, for goodness sakes, and I actually think that’s the best sort of agency is one where you are saying, “What do I need to do?” We have been very “otherized” – “what does everyone else need to do?” “That’s their problem,” “I wish they would….” But when you say, “how can I contribute to a solution,”, “what do I need to understand differently.” “have I contributed to the problem,” I think that’s when we really advance. And I think that’s the best sort of agency; humility, courage, or boldness, that if we are all doing that and acting in that way, we would see different outcomes.
Andrea: Well, taking it to that, I guess, that personal level then, you know, you mentioned George Floyd’s murder and the year and a half or so since that’s happened. Have you seen for yourself, have you had to step into something, have you had to step back from something emotionally to be able to take care of yourself? Or, you know, you’re a part of so many communities that have been impacted – as a mom, just so many ways, and as a leader. What was that like for you personally?
Chanda Smith Baker: Last year, was the hardest year of my life. I thought I had some hard years before, but it was the hardest year of my life. And it was the hardest year of my life because sometimes you have a hard work year, but your personal life is okay. And then sometimes you have something that’s disruptive at home or, you know, vice versa. And last year it was just all hard. Everything was hard. And you know, I lost my mother, I lost my sister in-law.
My mother was in hospice with me before she passed away. She came to my home two days before George Floyd was killed and so, you know, she died June 28. So that time period was an immense, time in our city. And it was so incredibly complicated for me just at home, with my children, with my own emotion, and with my sister.
And then later on, in my work life this is “go time.” The city is hurting I don’t feel responsible for solving. But I do know that we are responsible for showing up as the Minneapolis Foundation, and I have a lead role in doing that, and bringing voice and solution and presence to that work. And, you know, how do you do that when you don’t want to get out of bed?
Andrea: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: And then I have children and people in the community that are coming to me and asking for, if not a path to a solution, an explanation from my children on what this is. And of the five that I have, four of them are boys. So, I have four sons that have grown up in a time of seeing these videos become viral and watching death repeatedly, on people that look like them.
And that’s bad for any of us, by the way, to see that. But the implications when it’s reflective of who you are, knowing that you don’t have to do much to end up in that situation, it was just hard. And I think, good, better, or indifferent, I have been in roles where you still have to show up no matter if the ground underneath you just went away or not. And so, the beauty of the pandemic, I’ll say that, is that I was able to be at home.
Andrea: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: So, I could work and be sitting next to my mom. There were people that could come and support me differently because of COVID, you know. So, there were things about the circumstances that allowed for a flexibility that wouldn’t have occurred had we not been in that moment. And then there’s just the moment of me reacting to that video, hearing him call out for his mom, as I know my mom is transitioning from her life. That was incredibly complicated.
I think if you observed me in that time, you maybe wouldn’t even have known this was going on in my life, but it was going on in my life. And I think I owe sort of a lot to my mother in her raising me with the idea of being grounded in faith knowing that, you know, bad doesn’t happen always, right? Like joy comes in the morning, like all these things, right? Life comes with death, the circle of life, all of these things, I think, mattered to my own sanity.
And I think it was a moment where whether or not I understood it in that moment or not, is that I can’t control any of this, I can’t make her live longer. I can’t stop any of the things that are happening in the city, that I can only do what I can do, and I can only do it to the best degree that I can do, and still there was some humility.
And I think right-sizing my own expectation during that period of my life. And now that we’re out of sort of the intensity, that was the word I was trying to find earlier, now that we’re out of the intensity, my goal for this year is to take all of my vacation time to replenish myself, to surround myself by people that do that, and to be intentional about my rest so that I can be sustained.
Andrea: Hmm. You mentioned right sizing your expectations. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I mean, I felt like I was in the center of so much. And when you’re in these roles that have influence, you can feel like you can fix, or people can expect for you to fix or have a solution. And I was in shock like the rest of the world was, watching what happened and watching our city burn. And, I think, being able to sort of de-center oneself from the solution to being part of a community of people that will contribute either to the solution or the continued problem. That it’s not a failure on behalf of my leadership if things don’t go the way they’re always anticipated.
In this situation… maybe I’ll say it this way. And last year, I couldn’t show up for everyone equally, because there’s only so much that I can do. Even if I had all the hours in the day, I didn’t have the capacity, the emotional capacity to do everything for everyone. And sometimes when you see that disappointment coming back, you can take it on and you can double down, and I didn’t double down on it. I’m like, “Yep, I didn’t meet it. I got halfway there, and I ran my tank out empty, and I’m okay with that.” I gave it all I have, and then I ran out of gas. It is what it is.
Andrea: Sure. I mean, you mentioned faith before, I would imagine that being able to know that you’re not ultimately responsible for everything could help.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, and I mean, you know, fundamentally, I understood it, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t carry a weight of leadership that is sometimes irrational.
Andrea: Sure. Yeah!
Chanda Smith Baker: And I see my community was hurting, right? Yeah, these are people that I know and love. Even if I don’t know them, I love them, right? I mean, I want to, and I think the Minneapolis Foundation is a key institution. We have a number of people that care deeply about this community that were aiming to really understand the issue better. And, you know, I have to handle it to the extent that I can, but I can only go til my tank is empty.
Andrea: Absolutely. I mean, I think that a lot of people who care about having influence and healthy influence are running out of gas as you are putting it. And they have run out of gas a number of times over the last year, maybe they’re trying to replenish a little bit like you talked about this coming year or trying to replenish. I mean, when you think of the other people that are out there who really care about issues that are personally hurting, what would you say to them about, you know, being human and right sizing their expectations for their leadership?
Chanda Smith Baker: I mean, sometimes you need to sit in the pain. You know, I mean, using even my mom’s death, right? Like, I just had to sit in the pain. Sometimes you can’t, you can’t just get past it. You have to actually be in it, and I think moving from one painful event to the next without sitting in the pain is ultimately disasterous for us as leaders, that not taking the break. Because I do think that the arrogance of “I can’t take a break because no one else will do it,” because that’s ultimately what happens when you don’t take a break though, there’s a degree of arrogance in that.
And I think being able to tell folks that are hurting and in the work, that number one, it’s okay to hurt. Number two, there’s a lot of people in pain. And, you know, sometimes this is why support groups are so helpful, because there are other people that are going through things in a very similar way that even taking a break to be in that helps sort of ease the weight of isolation and responsibility when you know that other people are feeling the same way.
And then I think lastly, knowing that you’re not the best at anything when you’re tired, when you are responding in a crisis mode, when you are operating under toxic stress. You just can’t surface the best of you, whether or not as in your relationships and your work and in for yourself. So, I think being able to just take a step back, even if that step back is so you can step back into work more strongly, if it’s not even about you, it can still benefit you.
But I think just being able to take those steps back and balance out sort of the complexity, the urgency, the complicated ways in which we’re seeing the world show up in our communities with just some good laughter, like balancing sort of the problems and enjoy, right? You can always find joy; you can always find something to be hopeful for. And if you don’t take time to find it, you will just, I think, drown.
Andrea: That’s so much wisdom there, so much wisdom. How do you see where you’re at right now? You’re in a transition into this next period of time where you’re going to be refilling or how are you seeing where you’re at right now?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I don’t even know if I’m in a place that I can see it. You know, I mean, what I feel right now is, frankly, the importance of women in my life. I’m going through a couple of different transitions. One is being motherless, even at my age, is a transition, right? It changes the roles and the dynamics of a family. Having my kids become older, right? Like, I did wish for this at some point, “Why can’t they just get older?” And now they are.
And so, as a mom, that means something different when you’re not sort of controlling all of their moves if I was ever doing that, but in my mind, it was. Hmm, but it provides a different sort of time in relationship with them that I’m transitioning into. I think from a work perspective, based on what I know now, how do I need to think about reprioritizing the things that I’m involved with so that they align with where I’m at, and they align with where I feel the most passionate about where I can contribute.
Every table that someone wants you at doesn’t mean that I feel like I can contribute. And I think just being able to come back and just reset is incredibly important, because I acknowledge what this last 18 months or so, this last year has been. You know, everything was disrupted. So how can everything have been just disrupted and me not be disrupted?
So that’s where I am, and I am just finding all kinds of joy and balance with being with other women right now, whether or not it’s, I went on a girls’ trip last weekend; we’re celebrating someone’s birthday today. You know, I’m taking those moments more seriously than I would before. I would say “No, I’ve got some work to do.” “ No, I’m going to do some reading.” And I would think that they were a distraction from what I needed to accomplish versus necessary for what I need to accomplish.
Andrea: So good. So good. I love this conversation about the personal, just how you’ve been personally impacted. I appreciate you going there with me. When you were talking about, you know, realigning, making sure that things align with where you are going, not just what you’ve always done. Has anything come to mind, or have you been able to rely on any kind of framework or a few questions maybe that you ask yourself to say, you know, “this is something that I would obviously say yes to or obviously say no to,” or “I’m not really sure but because of…” You know? Is there any sort of filter that you use for making those kinds of decisions?
Chanda Smith Baker: I think I’m redefining it. I had a filter that worked before that maybe doesn’t work now. But I do know one of the questions I asked myself is, “what’s required of me now?” are the indications for me that I’m in the right place. Because I could do good work and still feel like I’m not in the right place.
Andrea: Totally.
Chanda Smith Baker: And so, what are those signals that I can identify, because some of the work we’re in took centuries for to get where it is. I’m not going to erase it, right? So, they’re really big, right: solving, achievement graphs, creating different policing, like all of these things. But what are the indications along the way of my contribution that would make me feel good about me being in that work?
I do think that I got involved in criminal justice reform work in 2011when I had a cousin, Cris Miller, who was murdered. And it was very complicated situation, again, where I knew a lot of the people. I even knew the shooter. He was working part time as a security guard, a jealous ex-husband. My cousin had just graduated from the police academy. The investigator on that case, Chris Annison, I just marveled at her and I listened to her on the witness stand.
I developed a relationship, somehow, with her during that trial during that year that we went through that process. Chris then asked if I would sit on a steering committee that the Department of Justice was doing, sort of our view on our practices here in the Minneapolis Police Department.
And I started to get really involved in that way, and I have grown in my desire to be in that space. And I think the moment of George Floyd and what we’re living through now has cemented that. And so, that is for sure one of the priorities of where I show up, in that space and then the podcast that you mentioned.
The podcast I just love, and I love it because I’m always able to look at something that I’ve thought about in a way that I haven’t thought about, right? And so, I love the learning aspect of it. It provides such fuel for how I think about the work and how I think about being, like just me being in the work, how I show up to be able to hear different approaches. And so, that is just going to stay a priority, of how do I listen, how do I learn, how do I be in conversations with people that see things differently. That will always be a priority and I think I’m just doubling down right there.
Andrea: Hmm. Yeah, I think one of the things that I’ve realized for sure, as my mom has Alzheimer’s, and so I can relate to some of the things that you’re talking about. And one of the things that I decided early on was it has to be okay that my mom needs me. It has to be okay that my kids need me. They’re still in school, you know. It has to be okay that I’m a mom and still doing this work that I’m doing. And so therefore, that means that this has to take up the space that it has to take up. It’s okay. I can’t fix the rest of it. Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: You can’t. And they make up all of your pieces, right? And I think that as women, you know, I hope my daughter doesn’t feel it the same way. But that it was almost like you didn’t go to work and talk about that you had children because you thought that it would somehow not allow you to move in other leadership if people felt like you couldn’t handle it. The people will make judgments on what you can handle, right?
Andrea: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: And it’s the same underestimated community, another community that I’m part of that has often been underestimated. And so, bringing all those pieces together of “this is who I am” and to be square right in the middle of it, I think, is where you do your best work. Because you feel better because you’re not compromising anything.
Andrea: Mm hmm. Well, and they bring a better and more holistic perspective to the problems that you’re trying to solve.
Chanda Smith Baker: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember in 2011, there was also a tornado that swept through the community. R.T. Rybak, who was the mayor at the time, I now work for him at the Minneapolis Foundation book, he had asked if I would play a leadership role in recovery. And I remember one of the community groups was going around because the electricity was out in the neighborhood for a while, and they were handing out candles and matches.
And I remember them giving them to our house because we were impacted by the tornado. And I don’t remember how old my youngest was. He might have been eight. Actually, no, he was younger than that, yeah, he’s like five. So, I’m thinking, you know, tornado, gas leaks, candles, matches, and I’m like, “What about flashlights and batteries?” Right? You know, and to the point that I don’t know if I would have thought that had I not been living through it. And so, the fact that you both have business knowledge and personal knowledge when those things come together, I think is, actually, when you do your best work.
Andrea: Yeah, yeah, I do, too. It’s really good. I’d like to ask a question about psychological safety, giving people feedback regarding conversations where cross cultural dynamics are at play, diverse ethnicities can impact how we’re coming to that discussion. What wisdom would you offer about what we need to really have in mind to establish that atmosphere of psychological safety for everybody in order to get to the point where we can give and receive constructive feedback?
Chanda Smith Baker: So complicated. Yeah, I mean, goodness, what I would say is I’m an observer. And when you’re in those tough conversations, you have to be observing and listening to more than the words being spoken, that not feeling safe in a conversation shows up in a number of ways. It can show up with people becoming more assertive and it could show up with people shutting down. It can show up in defensiveness. It could show up in tears. There’s so many ways that it can show up.
Andrea: Absolutely.
Chanda Smith Baker: And if you are committed to creating safety, then you also have to be committed to observing who doesn’t feel safe. And you have to be willing to speak up for that person who is unsafe. Even with the experience that I have, I am still in situations where the risk of saying what is in my heart and mind completely still doesn’t feel always safe. So, what does that mean? I think that when you’re the only one of an opinion, sometimes the person that has the only lone opinion at the table is also the person that has only lived experience of the solution you’re trying to solve.
So, if you’re debating sort of what needs to happen, you know, how do you identify whose voice has the most legitimate sort of experience around the issue? Is it possible to have a discussion without having agreement? And that the discussion is really about a deepened understanding, or better yet, building a team that honors one’s experiences. So, I think for one who is committed to creating the space, understanding what makes a space not safe and then understanding what is your contribution to making it safer, right? So, we all have our triggers. So, when you get defensive, you know, are you aware enough to say “why,” right? I’m like, “Yo, I just got triggered.”
“Here’s why I just got triggered. My response was not about what you just said. My response was that it triggered a thought about x, right? And I didn’t realize I was still sort of upset of carrying that. So, you know, I apologize if that came across in a way that was really strong but that’s where it was coming from. But I would love to hear more about what you are thinking right now.”
Andrea: And that just takes an incredible amount of self-awareness and humility to be able to say that out loud. But what have you seen when that has actually happened? You’ve been in the room and people have actually said that, or you’ve said that, how does it change the conversation?
Chanda Smith Baker: You know, when I have done it, it has strengthened my relationship with people. Because we are in a moment where if you say something not correct, not politically correct, awkwardly, particularly around race, people will just shut you down, right? Cancel culture.
So, I think that when I have done it, particularly with people that are awkward around those issues, they’ve been able to stay in the conversation and not feel judged. And I can be in the conversation and provide more opportunities or help them shape what they said in a way that I think they intended to mean it. Because I can pay attention to all of the other things in terms of I can pay attention to their other actions that indicate to me, that how they just made that comment was not in fact how it impacted me.
Andrea: Yep!
Chanda Smith Baker: So, let me tell them how it impacted me, and just say, “So I think what you meant to say was this, is that right? Let me tell you how it impacted me though. So, if you’re gonna be in this conversation again, may I offer some ways for you to say that differently?” By doing that, I get reached out to more about, “Hey, I just jumped into something, it went left real quick.” Like, what did I say that was wrong? I become a safe place, I’m saying, for them to talk to. And they were also safe for me to give feedback.
There are a number of incidents where I have done the same thing, it doesn’t go well. And so, I just have to disassociate me from the person that has to deliver that, right? It’s not my problem. I gave it a good attempt and I just have to move away from it.
Andrea: And let it go.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, let it go. But I do think that there’s an attempt to have a different community that’s free from what happened to George Floyd, which is free from all of the things that we’ve experienced. I think there are a lot of people in the conversation that want solutions. And some of them are more proximate than others.
And my hope is that in our quest for solutions, that we’re not creating more problems by a erasure, by minimization, or by marginalization of who are the experts that can contribute, right? That the experts that contribute are seen in ways that have, actually, created the problem in the first place. And I do see that showing up at the table. There’s lots of tables where I’m like, “This is not the table where I can contribute.” And that’s just okay, like, that’s the humility piece, the rightsizing piece, like every table I’m not going to be able to contribute to. It’s just on my table.
Andrea: I hear you. And if there’s no openness on the other end, there’s no actual back and forth. There’s no actual mutual influence then.
Chanda Smith Baker: Hmm.
Andrea: Yeah!
Chanda Smith Baker: And I think I mean, you know, for me in my experience, I spend, and I think many, many people of color, spend time listening and being part of systems that don’t fully honor our experiences. So, the way in which we move through life is very different, right? There are multiple sorts of ways in which we all show up, like I’m clear about that. But my need to sort of assimilate, if you will, into an environment that allows me to get good work done is very different than the reverse because most places I’m in I’m not the majority in terms of representation.
Andrea: And so, therefore…?
Chanda Smith Baker: I have to be more cautious or aware: this is my own interpretation of what I need to do, right, of how I present my ideas so that they can be heard. And the way that I can influence in that environment is very different than if I’m in a room that is full of African American women. I could say the same thing in like, half the words because the experience is shared.
Sometimes, I just have to make a look and we understand exactly what it is. No different than, you know, a mom on a playground and the kid does something. You look like, you know, you guys can both do that and know what it means., like “I tried to parent them, they still do stuff like this,” right?
I mean, you know, it’s the same thing that happens and so it’s just less work and there’s more intentionality, I guess, or more self-awareness. More something. There’s more energy that’s required of me, the energy to prepare for something out of my mouth is very, very different.
Andrea: Totally, yeah. I get that in a way of observing what you’re probably having to go through, and also, as a woman in different situations, I can relate to a certain degree. And yet, we all, we have these people that are close to us that we can just sort of drop the guard and relate to an easy level. And then there’s people that we want to still have impact on, influence, we’re at work, or whatever. And we do have to be more intentional as you put it. And yet it sounds like what you’re saying, is that you found that this happens more frequently or you’re in more of those situations. Is that true? Is that what you’re kind of…?
Chanda Smith Baker: I mean, the best way I think I could relate it is that, you know, I can sense the careful way in which nonblack people talk to me about black issues.
Andrea: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: Like they’re tentative, right? Like, I hear it. They want it. They’ll say something to wait to see if they did it okay, and to see what my reaction is. And what I would say is that if you extrapolate that to say, you know, what if you were always in a community where you were the only person?
Andrea: Exactly.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. When you’re in a situation like that, you learn how to navigate differently. There’s a different comfort level that I have being in an all-white space, than I imagine which most white people would have being in all black space, because this is more of my reality than it is theirs. And I think what we’re talking about now is sort of creating less distance between the understanding of what we’re all living in.
Your experiences are not mine, you know, like, even talking to my husband, it’s like, yeah, you can talk to me about it all day long, but you’re not a woman. Like, you can be completely brilliant on the issue, but you still don’t get my issue. And I think it’s the same sort of thing.
So, there’s both sort of context, experience, relatability. You can relate to something. But there’s also a degree of ease and comfort in the reality that I’m navigating, A lot of folks of color, particularly here in Minnesota, are navigating that space in a different way than what most white people have to navigate.
Andrea: Mm hmm. My husband and I are talking about this stuff all the time, too. And just like, how do things change, you know, what do we do? And why are people having a hard time accepting x, y, and z, whatever the issue might be. And it feels to me like part of it is a need to kind of be able to relate to that feeling, to connect to that. You know, you were just describing that feeling of being the only one in the room and having to be more intentional. And if we can, is there ever a time when you have to do that ever? Can you relate to that at any degree because you can?
Now, let’s put you in that position where that’s what is happening to you all the time, and you’re constantly in that mode, hyper vigilance or intentionality. You know, it just takes a lot more energy and effort. And can we relate to that in a different way, then, because at least there’s some sort of shared human experience that we can say, “Okay, I get it a little bit better, a little bit better,” you know.
Chanda Smith Baker: I think so. You know, ultimately, it is both about judgment and insecurity and I think, you know, and assumptions, and I think when we put that all down and just be in relationship with people. I mean, the more diverse my network is, the more comfortable I am moving within those diverse communities.
Andrea: Absolutely.
Chanda Smith Baker: And that’s my responsibility, right? That’s my responsibility to reach out to people that I’m curious about, to initiate conversation and to curate experiences that allow me to live into what I’m inspiring to be. And I think there’s a lot of folks in the community that want to better understand what is going on in terms of race, in terms of “what’s happening that the black community feels this way” or “why are these disparities – like, I don’t get it.”
Well, you’re not probably going to get it if you talk about it with people that also don’t get it. You’re just not going to get it. That’s not the great route to understanding. But if you are not intentionally trying to diversify who you are in relationship with, I think it makes it harder to believe in your intention. And you know, as an outsider, it would be harder for me to believe in your intention. And I think it becomes harder for you to achieve your intention. You know, take the first step. It might be awkward and might be uncomfortable, but once you get there, you know.
Andrea: Yeah, I mean, it kind of goes back to something you said towards the beginning about having the courage, both the courage and the “Hey, I’m here, it’s time for me to show up. I’m not just gonna wither away because then something just gets hard. But I feel like this is important enough to keep showing up even if I screw up.”
And I think that’s something that I learned personally a long time ago about just myself and showing up with my voice. And knowing that I was going to screw things up, I wasn’t going to be right all the time, that I was going to say something every once in a while that would look foolish. But if I didn’t start speaking, I would get nowhere. And I think anybody that wants to have a Voice of Influence and to have an impact to make a difference, you have to start and be willing to accept the fact that you’re going to screw it up, and it’s okay.
Chanda Smith Baker: So, first of all, it’s just a matter of fact. And you just have to like all the facts, right? Like, you’re imperfect. You’re going to say things that are imperfect. You’re going to relate to people in ways that they don’t like. You’re going to make decisions that make no sense, right? Like, you’re just going to do a bunch of stuff that’s not going to hit the way that you intended it to, and it is a matter of fact.
And I think getting comfortable with that fact is essential to having sort of the influence because, otherwise, what you’re doing is you’re centering yourself every time you make a mistake. “Why did I do that? Why did I say that? I wish I would have done this separately or differently.” Instead of thinking, “I wonder, I know I didn’t do that great. I wonder how they experienced that.”
And I think that we develop a sense of thinking about it from our own narrative and our own tape in our head. And I have found, you know, in my work when I do stuff like that, and I say it to someone who reports to me or I work with, and I’m like, “I really screwed that up. I think I really screwed that up.” “Wait, I just saw your body react to something I said. What did I do? I really want to hear what just happened, because your face is saying it’s okay, but your body language told me something different, and I want to hear what you actually feel so I don’t do that again.”
Andrea: So many good things that we have covered here today! Chanda, just listening to some of the episodes of your podcast and, “Ah, oh, I just I can’t wait to have this conversation with you because I feel like there’s a lot of kindred spirit-ness.”
Chanda Smith Baker: For sure.
Andrea: If somebody wanted to get in touch with you or follow you in your podcast, where can they do that?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I appreciate being here. It was such a great conversation. I love answering these types of questions because it hones in on my own thinking. You can find more information about the podcast at conversationswithchanda.org. And it will take you to the Minneapolis Foundation right to the page to get that detail. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn at Chanda Smith Baker.
Andrea: Great, perfect! And we’ll link to that in the show notes, so it’s easy to find. What last piece of advice would you have for somebody who really would like to have a Voice of Influence?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. One is being completely confident in your leadership and all the flaws that come along with it. I think, secondly, is being committed to learning, right, just stay aware of what’s happening, be committed to reading, to paying attention, to learning. And then I think, thirdly, is how do you amplify the voice and leadership of others? And that I do think that those three things will help sort of leverage your influence.
Andrea: So good. So good! Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it!
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Thank you!
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