The Lure of the Narcissist

//How is it that narcissistic leaders seem to be so good at gaining a following?  And why is it important to look at the systems that support such leaders instead of just assuming that the unhealthy leader is the sole source of the problem? 

We are re-visiting the important topic of dangerous leadership dynamics and how they impact organizations as we take another look at Dr. Chuck DeGroat’s interview from last summer in which he and Andrea discussed his book When Narcissism Comes to Church.

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Transcript

Hey there!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Today, Rosanne Moore is with me, and we’re going to be looking at this interview that we did with Dr. Chuck DeGroat.  It’s an interview we’re actually going to replay next week.  It’s one we did… gosh, it was last summer, but it was so good.  It was so packed full of information.  We feel like it’s really timely and relevant.  So, we’re going to replay it next week.

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  So, Dr. Chuck DeGroat, last spring, had just released a book called When Narcissism Comes to Church.  And I remember at the time that we set up this interview, Andrea, you said afterwards that it was one that really stood out as one that you enjoyed and learned a lot from.  You guys covered so much ground in that interview, as I recall.  And so, we thought it was well worth another look now, especially since we have this new format where we’re diving in greater depth into the subjects that our guests talk about.

And what stood out to you, Andrea?  Where would you want to start with all of the things that you guys talked about that covered?

Andrea:  Just the topic of narcissism is so important and relevant.  It’s becoming more and more prevalent.  It’s becoming more and more top of mind for the collective consciousness.  We were all, “Oh, wait a second, there are some people here that aren’t healthy.  What are we gonna do about that?”  And then also, narcissism and the reason why we are drawn to people like this is just fascinating and confounding at the same time.  It’s hard to know what to do with it.  What are we going to do with the fact that we’re drawn to people who have a lot of charisma, who seemed to be able to get a lot done, who might be able to force their way into situations or force their hand, force people to do the things that maybe we want them to do?

And so, we get behind somebody like that.  We feel connected with somebody like that, but then we realize, “Oh, wait a second, there’s a lot more going on here than meets the eye.  It’s not healthy.  So, what are we gonna do about that?”  There’s so much about the interview with Chuck where we talked about, what is narcissism first?  Why are we drawn to people who are like that?  Why are we drawn to power in general?  And then once somebody who is in our organization who might be a narcissist actually leaves the organization, where does the organization go from there?

Rosanne Moore:  That was one of the things he talked about was that narcissism was a continuum – that there’s a healthy sense of self-confidence – but the book was primarily about what happens when it’s self-absorption.  When people talk about narcissism, that term gets thrown around a lot.  But what usually we’re thinking of is the really destructive form, where you might even get into a personality disorder of narcissistic personality disorder that’s extremely destructive.  And in a situation like that, one of the points he made was you can get rid of a leader like that, but then you need to look at what’s been the impact on the system.

One of the things that Dr. DeGroat pointed out was we often focus on a narcissistic leader, especially if there’s a personality disorder or something like that’s involved.  But there’s a whole system that supports that and brings that person into power.  And even after a person in power like that is gone, the system still has to be dealt with.  So, that was one of the things we wanted to look at today.  I know, Andrea, you had some thoughts about that.

Andrea:  Yeah, really, what do we all want?  We’re here, Voice of Influence is here, and you’re here watching or listening because you care about having influence.  You want to make a difference in the world.  You have a cause perhaps, or just in general, you’re wanting to make a difference.  You want to use your voice to make a difference, and those are really good and healthy things to want.

And the thing is that we also, at the same time, want to be connected to others who want that too.  So, somebody who maybe is on our side, per se, or of our ideology or of our cause, it’s easy to get behind somebody.  We want to get behind somebody, or even be that somebody who is leading the charge and who is gathering a group of people to be around them in that mission.

And so, we want to be a part of that.  We like that.  And in fact, that’s even part of what we do with Voice of Influence.  Every time we do a training, every time we do talk, we always tap into this innate desire that we all have to make a difference and connect that to the difference that the company is making, the difference that the organization or the school is making.

And so, this is something that we find to be incredibly important.  We think that it is innate in us to want that.  And we want to help people find that in a healthy way.

Rosanne Moore:  If we recognize that there’s a place for healthy leadership of gathering people together, you have to have somebody who is able to motivate people to come together for a cause.  Where do things go wrong?  Where does power become a problem instead of an asset?

Andrea:  Yeah, power is the ultimate thing that we’re talking about here today because what is it about power that is good or bad?  I think that we seem to be drawn to where… there’s a seduction of power because when we have a cause that we really believe in, we really want to get that cause through.  We really want to see it to a good end.  And power seems to be the thing that is that shortcut or the thing that we all seem to think that is going to get us to that point.  But the problem with that is that it is not necessarily the most healthy way to have influence.

And Rosanne, you were telling me about an article that you read, and you directed me to this article.  It’s quite fascinating.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, The Atlantic did an article a few years back – and I just read it sometime in the past year – that talks about neurologically what power actually does to the brain, that a person in a position of great power actually winds up with injury to the brain.  It changes the structure of the brain.  And that was fascinating to me.  One of the things that the article brought out was that the very characteristics that make a good leader rise to a position of leadership in the first place – the ability to read people well, the ability to do risk assessment, and to make good decisions – that gets impaired over time in a person who does not have checks and balances on their power.

Andrea:  That’s so fascinating.  So, the article is called Power Causes Brain Damage.  And I just pulled this little quote from it, “Subjects under the influence of power, he found in studies spanning two decades…” – he being Dacher Keltner, a professor at UC Berkeley.  He found that they, “acted as if they had suffered a traumatic brain injury – becoming more impulsive, less risk-aware, and, crucially, less adept at seeing things from other people’s point of view.”  So just that alone is astonishing.  It should give all of us pause because there is something addictive and seductive about power.  But then it’s hard to discern once we have it.  It’s hard to discern when we’re handling it in an unhealthy way.  That’s quite scary.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, in systems that I’ve seen where you did have an unhealthy system and a very narcissistic leader, one of the dynamics that I observed over and over again was you had people who initially joined the idea because they wanted to do something good, but there was also a level of passivity, I think.  They wanted other people to take the risks for them that they weren’t willing to take, and there was a lack of collaboration.  There was a sense of getting the identity from the leader rather than from actually having a healthy sense of identity themselves apart from the organization.

And I can remember at one point leaving an unhealthy organization that I had been part of and thinking my whole life was tied up in that group.  Every part of my life was interwoven with that group, and I will never do that again.  I’ll never put all of my relational, spiritual, social, and financial eggs in the same basket like that ever again, because it meant walking away from unhealth meant I didn’t just lose the things that I had loved about working with that organization.  I lost my entire community.  I lost my entire support system.  And when you have a family, it’s not just you.  It’s your children and all of the milestone events that you have within your family that you celebrate, all of that gets impacted as well.

And so, it’s really hard for people who find themselves in the situation to just up and leave, but the price you pay if you continue to support something that’s unhealthy is that you damage other people, and you lose your own integrity.  And so, you have to ask yourself, is that worth it?

Andrea:  That’s tough.  I think that’s one of the hardest things about being in a situation like this, where you’re trying to have to grapple with whether or not you might be following a narcissistic leader that might have a cult-like kind of following.  And, “Maybe I might even be part of that.”  So, there’s the all of the practical things that you just mentioned, Rosanne, and then there’s also this sort of internal, “Oh, my gosh, who am I?”  Having to take that step back and ask, “Wait a second, am I who I thought it was?”  I also have felt like that before.

To be in that position where you’re taking that step back and saying, “Whoa, everything I thought that I was is not quite what I thought it was,” it’s disorienting.  You lose your sense of… I guess, your footing.  You lose all these practical things that you were talking about, but then you also lose your own sense of trust in yourself, your sense of trust in other people, perhaps your sense of trust in God.  And that is a tough place to be.  To put yourself in that position to, actually, willingly choose to look at that, that’s tough.

Rosanne Moore:  But the other side of it is if you don’t do that work, you lose yourself.  Because when you’re in a situation like that, only the leader defines what you’re allowed to be.  So, you’re not you.  You don’t get to be who you are.  You don’t get to follow your own judgment.  You don’t get to use your own voice.  You don’t get to bring your gifts to the world.  You only get to bring the part that the leader allows you to have and that those in the system allow you to have.

So, there’s a lot of pressure from the system.  Even if you try to voice the truth, other people will try to shut you down.  There’s a whole dynamic in a system like that.  And so, none of it is real.  On the one hand, what you give up is enormous, but none of it is real.  And so, life on the outside is way better, even though it’s more chaotic.  Way better!

Andrea:  Okay, but it is hard to get to that point.

Rosanne Moore:  It is.

Andrea:  And it’s not like any of us…  I think we want to recognize just how…  Because we both have been there, we recognize how hard it is to have to take that step back and question all those things, to potentially lose all of those things.  And it takes an enormous amount of courage to even start that process.  So we just want to acknowledge that on the front end.

Rosanne Moore:  Absolutely.  And I don’t minimize the level of courage and difficulty that’s involved in leaving.  But my thing is I would just speak to the person who’s in enormous pain, who’s in that situation, who’s really confused because it seems like they’re constantly being pushed to go against what they believe is true and right.  And they’re being silenced, and they’re having to go through their day numb.  There’s an enormous level of pain and depression and loneliness and isolation that comes with that.  And so, I would just speak to that person and say, “You are not crazy.  If that’s the way that you’re feeling, something is wrong.”

We’ve talked before about the work that I do with women in abusive relationships, and leaving an abusive relationship, intimate relationship, there’s a lot of overlap between that and an unhealthy organization system.  And one of the things that I tell women leaving that kind of a situation is, “If you are in an environment that constantly makes you feel chaotic and confused and disoriented, there’s something wrong.”  Those are signs that there’s manipulation that’s taking place somewhere, and pay attention to that.  Don’t invalidate that.  You really want to get the distance to look at that and find out what’s creating that for you, instead of just accepting the system or the abusers’ accusation that you’re the problem.  If you’re feeling that way, those are signs of manipulation going on.

Andrea:  Absolutely.  Those are very important red flags to be aware of.  One of the things that we want to make sure to touch on here before we go any further is that there is hope.  Even though it’s really hard to imagine entering into this self-reflection, and taking a step back, and thinking about one’s own identity and maybe what you believed and things like this, and what you might lose if you were to pull back and not follow this leader in the same way that you had before… that there is so much more to be gained than you realize maybe in this moment.

Rosanne, can you speak to that for just a second?

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, I think that what led you into that situation in the first place, that desire for community and collaboration and all of that stuff that led you there in the first place, those are good and honorable things.  And they’re worth fighting for.  They’re worth pursuing in a healthy way.  And so, if you’re in a situation that is crushing your soul as the price tag for participating in something that’s promising more than it’s delivering, in terms of the organization, you’re worth stepping out of that and reassessing.

And there are healthy ways, and they’re not always big.  They’re not always in the spotlight, but there are healthy ways to still accomplish those things.  And you don’t have to sell your soul for power in order to accomplish the things that you feel called to.  You just don’t.  There are other options.

Andrea:  Because really, influence is messier.  It takes longer, but it’s transformational.  Whereas, if you’re just trying to go for that, like, gut punch, “Let’s just get this done.  We want to make the change that we need to make and move on,” that might work for the moment, but it’s not going to create that lasting culture.  It’s not going to create that lasting change in individuals that becomes that engaging work environment, that engaging place where you are truly helping everybody to connect their gifts with the need that’s in the world.

And so, if you’re wanting that, if you’re wanting that kind of influence where you’re connecting gifts with the need that’s in the world, if you’re wanting to take away the obstacles that are getting in the way of that happening, then you need to have a deeper kind of impact – a deeper kind of transformational impact, and that is messier.  It is more collaborative.  It respects other people’s voices and other perspectives, which is very important and yet difficult to accomplish.

And so, it does take more work.  It is messier, but it is so rewarding.  When you can be in an environment, and be in relationships, be on a team where people are truly able to be themselves and give their best to solve the problem that’s at hand, that is way more rewarding and impactful than it is to just, “We’ve got the solution.  We’re just gonna push it through.  We’re not gonna listen to anybody else, and it’s power that wins the day.”

Rosanne Moore:  One of the things that Chuck pointed out in his book is that narcissists are motivated heavily by shame.  Like, they’re trying to escape their own sense of inner emptiness.  And so, it’s all about building facades and demanding that other people help prop up the facades.  So, really, if we want to do something that’s substantive, that’s going to last, it’s going to be messier than a facade.  It’s not going to be as immediately put together looking as a facade, but it will be real.  And it will stand the test of time.

Andrea:  So, here’s the thing.  There’s this kind of internal thing where we don’t necessarily want to believe that a person in power is wrong because they are doing so many good things.  They might be accomplishing a lot of good things.  And that internal kind of tension that we feel is possibly due to the fact that it’s threatening our sense of trust in that person and the trust that we have in ourselves to make good judgments about people.  It could potentially threaten our trust in God or the way that things should be.  But what we want you to know is that everybody is susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

I used to think that I was really good at reading people, and I just knew that I would be able to tell if somebody was trying to deceive me.  But I was in a situation years ago where somebody had told me a lie, and I was so involved in it for months and had no idea that it was all based on a lie.  And when I got out of that situation and I realized that it was a lie, I was so disoriented.  It was so hard.  It was hard to imagine.  It was like, “Whoa, maybe I actually am like everybody else.  I am also susceptible to manipulation.”

So, there’s that internal stuff that we’re struggling with, that wrestle, but then there’s also the external struggle of, “Oh my goodness, it seems like everybody else is on their side,” on the other person’s side, the side of the narcissist.  And people in power protect people in power  because why?  Because of it’s a seductive nature, because it’s addictive.  And sometimes we’d rather question ourselves, we’d rather question other people than question the person in power.  Even throwing other people under the bus, people we love, people we care about, that can happen sometimes in order to maintain our sense of identity, to maintain our place in the group.

And so, when you’re facing that, you might be facing other people who are feeling that way.  They might be seeing it.  You’re like, “How can you not see this?  This is crazy.”  But you have to understand and have some compassion for them in the sense that they are holding on so tightly to something, they’re protecting something inside themselves that feels like it would die if they lost it.

So, there is a sense in which, yes, there are times when we just call that out.  But also you understand and have compassion for the fact that it might take a little bit of time and compassion and whatnot to be able to break through that.  So, for yourself, when you’re encountering something in a situation like this, it’s important to know that the people around you, they’re protecting things too and that they’re not necessarily right.

Rosanne Moore:  I think there are two deceptions that can go on.  One is you can have a liar who is very good at lying.  You talked about that.  One of the things that often gets said is, “But he was so nice.”  Well, of course he was.  That’s a skill set.  That’s not a character issue.  That’s a skill set to be nice for the purpose of gaining trust.  And every con man who’s effective has worked on their skills at gaining your trust.

So that’s one thing is when we get deceived because the person is deceitful, but then the other part you touched on is the role we play in self-deception as well once we start to see the truth, and we talk ourselves out of it because it feels like the price of confronting that truth is going to be too much.  And I think recognizing the difference between people who are genuinely deceived and those who are self-deceptive, I think you have to handle those two situations differently because…

Andrea:  You don’t think that they’re the same?

Rosanne Moore:  The person who knows the truth but they’re choosing not to see it is not the same as a person who actually genuinely believes the liar.

Andrea:  I can see also a little bit of a distinction between people who should know better, people who are closer to the situation, that sort of thing.

Rosanne Moore:  And I think over time, the ones who are genuinely deceived will have opportunity.  Truth always outs.  So, they’ll have opportunity to see the truth, and then they’ll make a decision whether or not they’re going to act on the truth or at that point whether they’re going to self-deceive.

Andrea:  That’s a good point.

Rosanne Moore:  I think there are times when people go into something knowing that the person is not what they say they are.  But because they’re offering something that seems important enough to turn a blind eye to the deception, they self-deceive from the beginning, from the get-go.

Andrea:  That makes sense.  I get that.  I can see what you’re saying.  So, you can be deceived, and then once you start to see things, you’re making a decision about whether or not, “I’m going to continue to double down on this self-deception or if I’m going to make a change.”  That’s interesting.  So, what do we do?  Where do you go from here?

Our theory of change, of internal transformation is somewhat based on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, that even for change to take place within a person, they need to be safe, and then they need to have significance, they need to recognize their own significance, and then they need to move into challenge or this idea of making the actual change.  So, safety first.

So, when we look at safety first, we’re talking about creating distance or boundaries between yourself and the person or the influence that might be unhealthy.  So, if you’re even questioning this, it’s going to be hard to do much about it until you give yourself some space to be able to think through it.  We’re talking physical distance, social media fast perhaps, stop watching the same news channel – that can be an important thing to do to diversify where you’re getting your information – to reconnect with people from your past that you can trust.  We’re trying to create some of that space and boundaries in order for you to be able to start to think more clearly for yourself.

And then the next step would be to really – and it’s simultaneously, really – clear through that fog to be able to see what is true.  So, whether that be through therapy and being able to talk through, “Okay, so what is actually real about the situation?  What is my experience?  What is the experience of others?  What is normal, and what is not normal?”  That’s a big question that people ask a lot.  Some of that could also include some journaling and self-reflection that you’re doing on your own.  And again, checking other sources of information to gain a clearer picture.

Rosanne Moore:  And evaluating, too, what has shaped your perspective.  All of us are flawed, right?  And we grow up in families that are flawed to various degrees.  It doesn’t matter how healthy your family is.  There are still things that are… like, it’s your own private dysfunction.  So, part of health is being able to honestly evaluate, “Am I being shaped more by the facts of this situation and what is true, or am I just doing what I’m used to, what I’ve accepted as true because I’m so used to it that, why would I?  Now, all of a sudden, it’s being challenged in a way that I’ve never had it challenged before.”  And that’s not a bad thing.  That’s a good thing because it’s an opportunity for growth.

Andrea:  That’s right, because then we get to the next step, which has to do with our own, “What are we going to do about it?”  So that self-evaluation kind of starts in that seeing what’s true.  I think that is also a little bit of that next step, too, because you’re needing to actually really look at, “Why was I deceived in this situation?  I’m susceptible, I’m a human being, but at the same time, what do I need to look at so that this doesn’t happen again?  Or so that I’m not easily drawn into that next kind of situation where it’s another narcissist who has drawn me in because I have all these desires for power and for change that are not being met in these other ways?”  That self-evaluation, and then also making the decision, “What am I going to do about all this?  What is the actual outcome that I’m going to seek, and what is my plan for moving forward, addressing those competing desires for influence and the connection to power?  Where am I repeating unhealthy patterns?” that Rosanne mentioned before.  And then just also recognizing that this really isn’t the only way.  There is a more healthy way of living.  There’s a more healthy way of getting your agenda across, to getting things done.

Rosanne Moore:  And I think a lot of that is building the inner confidence that your voice matters and your gifts matter, not in a way that’s pushy or demanding or whatever but is at rest.  When we can be at rest with who we are, then we will attract people and situations that are healthier.  There are people who are in turmoil in their lives because they had a life that they did not ask for that was really hard, and that they’re trying to recover from.  And so, I don’t in any way, shape, or form… if that’s your story, I don’t want to make you feel less than.  That has been my story.

The question then is, what do you do with that?  Do you tell yourself, “I’m worth taking the time to sort this out because I am going to believe the truth that I have something to offer, that my voice does matter, that my gifts are still intact?  Regardless of what was done to me, I have something to bring to the world.  So, I’m going to go on this journey so that I can find the piece that then gives me the opportunity to offer my gifts in a healthy way.”

I think all of that’s really important as we do that work of challenge and recognizing that change should be the norm.  We don’t have to guard a sense of identity.  I think all of us have experienced people who we’ve known in the past who, like, thirty, forty years later, they don’t seem to have grown at all.  And so, what was soft and open and sincere then – it may have been wrong, but it was sincere – has now become hardened and defended and abrasive toward others.

And I know, as a company, we’re committed not to live that way and not to work that way.  And so it’s our joy to be able to help companies that really care about having a healthy legacy and a healthy team dynamic.  That’s one of the things we really value.

Andrea:  That’s right, absolutely.  Because ultimately, we’re wanting to have authentic influence.  We’re wanting to have meaning in our work and in our lives.  Everybody wants this.  Everybody wants to be connected in that way.  And what a privilege and an honor it is to provide that sort of opportunity for others.  So, if you are leading in any kind of capacity in an organization, that is a high calling.  And we honor your efforts because really, it’s courageous leaders that are willing to do this hard work inside themselves that are going to really be able to move organizations and the whole world forward.

Rosanne Moore:  And you avoid brain damage.

Andrea:  And you don’t have to worry about your own brain getting damaged.  That’s right.  No more traumatic brain injuries for people in power.

If you are looking for resources when it comes to thinking through any of this, if you’re grappling with any of this yourself, please reach out to us through our contact form at voiceofinfluence.net.  And then also, if you are somebody who knows someone or you are personally are experiencing an intimate relationship where you think you might be experiencing coercive control by another person, and you do need help navigating, figuring out what to do next, I want to encourage you to check out Lifeline – voiceofinfluence.net/lifeline.  This is the course that Rosanne made, in particular for women who are navigating family court in the case of domestic abuse and coercive control.

And there are free resources available there, and there’s a course that’s just twenty-five dollars.  So, if you want to get it for somebody else, or get it and go through it with somebody else, or if you yourself need it, we want to encourage you to take advantage of that resource as well.  And be sure to check out our interview with Chuck DeGroat next week.

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